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Author Topic:   Jesus; the Torah, Nevi'im, and Psalms (Part 2)
randman 
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Message 159 of 233 (273561)
12-28-2005 3:22 PM


prophecy
The rules of interpreting scripture here seem to differ. In the Christian tradition, prophecy can have more than one fulfillment and meaning. For example, just because a passage refers to a historical person in the Old Testament does not mean it does not also refer to Jesus or the Messiah.
That's an important distinction to note. Paul went as far as to say the things in the Old Testament were shadows of things in Christ. "Does God take care for oxen?" he writes for instance and says it is written that the ministers of God partake of natural substance when "plowing" or ministering the word of God.
Now, you can retort that God does take care for oxen, and Jesus says He notices the sparrow even, but it really doesn't change the point and just shows someone is being overly argumentative. God takes more care for His people than for oxen either way.
Once you employ this principle, the Old Testament is read differently and it is amazing how many prophecies Jesus fulfills, and other areas of truth open up.
For example, why did God tell Moses to say to Pharoah they needed to take 3 days journey to make a sacrifice? If you look at the use of 3 days throughout the scripture, and 3 main feasts ordained in the Law, you see a pattern, I believe. God intended more than a 3 natural day journey, but there is a 3 day spiritual journey necessary for all Christians to get completely out of Egypt and the world, Passover, Pentecost, and Tabernacles, which coorelate to spiritual truths and experiences, and all 3 are necessary.
So arguing without understanding each other's evidentiary standards is a little silly. Saying to a Christian that just because Isaiah or someone could also be referring to something that happened back then just doesn't change the fact that from the Christian perspective, both can be equally true, and in fact, the references to Christ even more true.
Moreover, there are some prophecies that imo, although appear to refer to natural things, refer almost exclusively to spiritual things and spiritual principles (see Ezekiel's vision of the Temple).

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 162 of 233 (273574)
12-28-2005 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by arachnophilia
12-28-2005 4:11 PM


Re: prophecy
well, that's a little different than fulfillment of prophecy, isn't it?
No, not at all. Prophecies can and often do have more than fulfillment and intent. That's a longstanding Christian stance. You just don't agree with it.
The idea is the intent is more than the initial fulfillment.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 165 of 233 (273580)
12-28-2005 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 163 by purpledawn
12-28-2005 4:28 PM


Re: Prophecy
Jesus and the writers of the New Testament indicate that prophecy can be seen in this manner. I quoted Paul.
If you want to know where God says this directly, frankly you would have to talk with people that have heard the Spirit of God show them this in some fashion, people like Paul for example.
If you don't want to accept the New Testament as the word of God, that's your business.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
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Message 168 of 233 (273594)
12-28-2005 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 167 by purpledawn
12-28-2005 5:14 PM


Re: Prophecy
I quoted Paul "Does God take care for oxen?"

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randman 
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Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 198 of 233 (273848)
12-29-2005 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by ramoss
12-28-2005 9:13 PM


Re: prophecy
Ramoss, it basically boils down to what is and what is not the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God is the One, from the Christian perspective, than "reinterprets" the prophecy, but keep in mind that some prophecies don't really match that well for some natural thing anyway, such as Ezekiel's prophecy, and if you were to really look into it, I think you would see there is an obvious pattern in the word of God, and as you see this pattern, it becomes clear that the higher meaning was there all along and intended by God all along.
Keep in mind there were different writers for most books over a wide range of time, and yet the higher, more spiritualized readings of the text are even more consistent than the natural reading often, as if all along God had a deeper, later fulfillment in mind in inspiring the author or prophet to express things a certain way.
For example, the passage in Isaiah referring to explicitly to Jesus' death works and fits far better for Jesus than for Israel which is how people saw it before. It is pretty darn well obvious it refers to Jesus, and since the identical passage was found in the Dead Seas scrolls, it's clear it was not changed after the fact either.
Even some weaker examples, in terms of arguing for reference to Christ, are worth looking at, like "out of Egypt have I called my son" which was taken to refer to Israel as a whole, but fits the life of Jesus too.
Now, this would be hard to explain unless you receive the Holy Spirit and get his help, but the Bible does not just contain a deeper level referring to Jesus, but to spiritual principles and things within Christ as well.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 199 of 233 (273849)
12-29-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
12-28-2005 10:35 PM


Re: Prophecy fraud
Faith, good point. I think jar feels like anyone that says they are a Christian and believes in the golden rule, basically is all that is necessary to be a Christian, and that the Bible is probably something to be avoided. His religion is reduced to a moral code, and thus anything beyond that he derides.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 201 of 233 (273852)
12-29-2005 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by jar
12-28-2005 6:56 PM


Re: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
Jar, if that is the case, if there is another unfulfilled prophecy, then Jesus stating it refers to John is evidence Jesus believes prophecy can have more than one fulfillment.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 206 of 233 (273895)
12-29-2005 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by jar
12-29-2005 1:23 PM


Re: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
Jesus called John the Baptist the fulfillment of Elijah coming again.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 207 of 233 (273904)
12-29-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by ramoss
12-29-2005 2:58 PM


Re: prophecy
First off, the Suffering Servant is sinless and Israel has never been described that way, but here is a link to some arguments for Jesus as the Suffering Servant.
http://www.chaim.org/nation.htm
My own understanding came from reading the text itself. Personally, I think at times it is futile to argue about this. If you want to beleive differently, that's your business. Imo, the text is abundantly clear on it's own.
Here is some evidence Jewish scholars believed the Messiah is to be the Suffering Servant.
Maybe you weren't told, but many ancient rabbinic sources understood Isaiah 53 as referring to the Messiah. Here are quotations from some of them:
Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)
Midrash Ruth Rabbah: "Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): -- He is speaking of king Messiah; `Come hither,' draw near to the throne; `and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; `and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, `But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities'"
Targum Jonathan: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong..."
Zohar: "`He was wounded for our transgressions,' etc....There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, `Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'"
Rabbi Moses Maimonides: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived." (From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)
http://www.chaim.org/rabbis.htm
Here is the text.
2For He shall grow up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground. He hath no form nor comeliness, and when we shall see Him, there is no beauty that we should desire Him.
3He is despised and rejected of men, a Man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief. And we hid as it were our faces from Him; He was despised, and we esteemed Him not.
4Surely He hath borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we did esteem Him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But He was wounded for our transgressions; He was bruised for our iniquities. The chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with His stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and He was afflicted, yet He opened not his mouth; He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter; and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who shall declare His generation? For He was cut off out of the land of the living; for the transgression of My people was He stricken.
9And He made His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in His death, because He had done no violence, neither was any deceit in His mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise Him; He hath put Him to grief. When thou shalt make His soul an offering for sin, He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in His hand.
11He shall see of the travail of His soul, and shall be satisfied. By His knowledge shall My righteous Servant justify many, for He shall bear their iniquities.
Isaiah 53 KJ21 - Who hath believed our report? And to - Bible Gateway
Imo, the issue is not scholarship, but whether people want to believe or not. If you don't want to believe, you will read the text one way with that bias in mind, and try to find reasons to reject it, and if you are open to believing or want to find meaning and deeper truth in the Bible, you will find it.
There are those that argue it is wrong to look for something, as if looking with faith causes an unreasonable outcome, but the Bible's stance and the believer's stance is you cannot have reason working correct in respect to spiritual things without starting out from a stance of faith. It takes faith to become aware of certain realms of spiritual illumination. If you start out ruling out faith, then you are limiting your reason and ability to grasp certain spiritual truths.

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 Message 204 by ramoss, posted 12-29-2005 2:58 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 208 of 233 (273905)
12-29-2005 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by purpledawn
12-29-2005 3:40 PM


Re: Prophecy Specifics
see post 207

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 210 of 233 (273909)
12-29-2005 4:57 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by jar
12-29-2005 4:55 PM


Re: Did They Write About Jesus in the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms?
Edit: OK, I see where you are referring to Jesus' words not Isaiah 53. Are you not already familiar with Jesus's words abotu John the Baptist?
Matthew 11: 14-15, for one
This message has been edited by randman, 12-29-2005 05:00 PM

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 212 of 233 (273911)
12-29-2005 5:03 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by jar
12-29-2005 4:59 PM


Didn't see this before the edit
Matthew 11: 14-15
Luke 1:17
John 1:23

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 214 of 233 (273922)
12-29-2005 5:35 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by ramoss
12-29-2005 5:14 PM


Re: prophecy
First off, this is just wrong.
Isaiah 53.3: "A man of pains and acquainted with disease ..."
Acquainted with sorrows is the translation Christians follow.
As far as other passages, like I said, it is the nature of prophecy to at times refer to one thing and then another somewhat obscurely, which is why Rabbis I listed thought the passage refers to the Messiah despite the passages prior, and it is the nature of prophecy to also be able to refer to more than one thing at the same time.
You are trying to start with the assumption that prophecy is not spiritual, and so assume spiritual principles concerning prophecy do not exist, but they do. You just don't want to allow for them.
His seed are those that are born-again, and his days are prolonged indeed, forever.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 216 of 233 (273930)
12-29-2005 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by jar
12-29-2005 5:39 PM


Re: Didn't see this before the edit
jar, I have learned that you won't admit the truth if it shows you were wrong regardless of the evidence, but here it is anyway.
14And if ye will receive it, this is Elijah, who was to come.
15He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Jesus says this is Elijah. You say he is speaking allegorically. So what? That is proof positive that prophecy can have more than one fulfillment since Jesus Himself uses, according to you, a prophecy as an allegorical fulfillment, something you deny is correct.
So you are disproven by your own admission.
Let's look futher.
17And he shall go before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready a people prepared for the Lord."
Luke says John was in the spirit and power of Elijah.
John denies being literally Elijah.
21And they asked him, "What then? Art thou Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Art thou that Prophet?" And he answered, "No."
22Then said they unto him, "Who art thou, that we may give an answer to those who sent us? What sayest thou of thyself?"
23He said, "I am `the voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord,"' as said the prophet Isaiah."
24And those who were sent were of the Pharisees.
25And they asked him, and said unto him, "Why dost thou baptize then if thou art not that Christ, nor Elijah, neither that Prophet?"
26John answered them, saying, "I baptize with water, but there standeth One among you whom ye know not.
27He it is who, coming after me, is preferred before me, whose shoe's strap I am not worthy to unloose."
Here John says he is not Elijah, but quotes Isaiah which is very similar to Malachi 3:1.
So what should we make of this? Jesus and Luke call John the Baptist Elijah, in a spiritual fashion, but John just indicates he is fulfilling aspects of that but is not Elijah.
Is it not clear now?
There is more than one fulfillment of the prophecy because there is more than one coming in the sense that Jesus the Messiah appeared, and will come again.

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randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4928 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 219 of 233 (273982)
12-29-2005 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by jar
12-29-2005 6:35 PM


Re: Didn't see this before the edit
Jesus says John the Baptist is a fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy. I showed you that. You can argue with Jesus if you want, but He still said it.

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