Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9164 total)
3 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,914 Year: 4,171/9,624 Month: 1,042/974 Week: 1/368 Day: 1/11 Hour: 0/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Bible Unearthed - Exodus
Rashbam
Inactive Member


Message 91 of 151 (41813)
05-30-2003 8:19 PM


420 years?
Where does this figure of 420 years come from? The figure in the MT of Exod 12:40 is 430 years. But there are some problems with inner asynchronism here. Moses' grandfather, Kohath, was among the group of 70 that emigrated from Canaan to Egypt, according to Gen 46:11. Kohath lived to age 133, according to Exod 6:18. Amram, who was Kohath's son (Exod 6:18) and Moses' father (Exod 6:20), lived to age 137 (Exod 6:20). Moses was eighty years old when he first spoke to Pharaoh (Exod 7:7). He was also eighty years old at the time of the exodus, since the Israelites wandered for forty years (Exod 16:35, Num 32:13) and Moses died just as the Israelites were crossing over the Jordan, at age 120 (Deut 31:2).
Therefore, from the day Jacob and his "70 souls" descended into Egypt until the day of the exodus could have been at most 133 + 137 + 80 = 350 years. This assumes that Kohath was born as Jacob's entourage was leaving Canaan, and that Moses was born in the year his father Amram died. A priori it seems likely that Jacob's grandson Kohath was an adult when he entered Egypt, since he was the second son of Levi, who was the third son of Jacob. Yet included in the entourage are also great grandsons of Jacob by some of his youngest sons, such as Heber and Malchiel, who were sons of Beriah, son of Jacob and Leah's fifth son, Asher. In addition, it also seems very likely that Amram was rather young when his son Moses was born. The reason for this is that Yochebed, Amram's wife and Moses' mother, was in fact Amram's aunt (Exod 6:20). If, say, Kohath was 20 years old at the time of the descent into Egypt, and Amram was 60 when he married Yochebed, then the duration of the "enslavement" was 113 + 60 + 80 = 253 years. (Traditional Jewish sources put the duration at 210 years.)
(NB: I think it is arrant foolishness to take any of this seriously, but even if one does, there are inescapable problems with inner asynchronisms, as my analysis abundantly reveals.)
[This message has been edited by Rashbam, 05-30-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by nuklhed67, posted 05-30-2003 8:51 PM Rashbam has not replied

Rashbam
Inactive Member


Message 94 of 151 (41821)
05-30-2003 10:14 PM


Sorry, but the context makes it perfectly clear that Moses is Amram's son, Amram Kohath's and Kohath Levi's. You've got to be pretty obtuse (or flat out dishonest) to read Genesis 46 and not conclude that Kohath was Levi's son (Gen 46:11). If you don't think Kohath was Levi's son, for example, then there is no reason to believe Er and Onan were Judah's sons (Gen 46:12). Similarly, in Exod 6, Kohath is identified as a son of Levi and Amram as a son of Kohath.
Ani choshev she'ata lo yodea likro ivrit, chaver. Nachon??
[This message has been edited by Rashbam, 05-30-2003]

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by nuklhed67, posted 06-03-2003 4:06 PM Rashbam has replied

Rashbam
Inactive Member


Message 111 of 151 (42145)
06-05-2003 5:02 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by nuklhed67
06-03-2003 4:06 PM


nuklhed67 wrote:
quote:
I agree with the first part of the statement, Genesis 46:11 looks to be pretty obvious. The rest of the lineage I'm not so sure about whether the context calls for a strict "son" meaning or not. I'm not a Hebrew scholar, so I'm relying on the work of others here.
If I understand your concern properly, you are conceding my reading of Gen 46:11, namely that Gershon, Kohath, and Merari are biological sons of Levi. You are asking why the same interpretation should apply to Exodus 6:18, where Amram is listed as a son of Kohath. The answer is obvious. Exod 6 is another genealogy and uses the same formulaic uvnei X Y = "and the sons of X: Y" as in Gen 46. E.g. Exod 46:18 uvnei qohat amram v'yitzhar v'chevron v'uziyel = "and the sons of Kohath: Amram, Izhar, Hebron, and Uzziel" is precisely the same usage as in Gen 46:11 (uvnei levi gershon qohat um'rari = "and the sons of Levi: Gershon, Kohath, and Merari"). So if you accept the meaning in Gen 46, you must also accept the meaning in Exod 6.
Exod 6:16 begins the Levite genealogy, and leads off with v'eileh sh'mot bnei levi l'toldotam = "and these are the names of the children of Levi by their generations". Here one might read "children of Levi" more broadly, as in "descendants of Levi," although the only children mentioned in Exod 6:16 itself are Levi's biological children, Gershon, Kohath, and Merari. The verses which follow, however, are clearly in a family tree structure, listing fathers and biological sons. Again, there is a direct parallel to chapter 46 of Genesis: Gen 46:8 reads v'eileh sh'mot bnei yisrael... = "and these are the names of the children of Israel..." followed by a list of specific father-son relations.
Hope this helps!
[This message has been edited by Rashbam, 06-05-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by nuklhed67, posted 06-03-2003 4:06 PM nuklhed67 has not replied

Rashbam
Inactive Member


Message 125 of 151 (42952)
06-15-2003 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by nuklhed67
06-06-2003 2:48 PM


Re: There's numbers and there's Numbers!
nuklhed promised to do some "research" on the apparent inner biblical contradiction concerning the number of years the Israelites were enslaved in Egypt. Was this an empty promise or has anything come of it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by nuklhed67, posted 06-06-2003 2:48 PM nuklhed67 has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024