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Author Topic:   Discovery Institute's "400 Scientist" Roster
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 83 of 125 (252478)
10-17-2005 7:02 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by DouglasGFrank
10-17-2005 6:14 PM


Examples?
Darwinian mechanisms alone have been scientifically demonstrated over and over again to be insufficient to account for the complexity we observe. There may be other natural mechanisms, to be sure, but devotionto any particular 'ism' is not science.
This is not the forum to post these demonstrations of insufficiency but I'd sure like to see them. Since I don't know what you would be refering to I can't guess where you should post them.
I suppose that since Darwin didn't consider the isolation of populations as a part of speciation then we could easily agree with the first sentence of the statement. However if that is all that the statement really means, to promulgate such a statement and suggest that it means there is a good reason for accepting an intelligent designer then appears to be deliberately misleading, even dishonest.

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 Message 81 by DouglasGFrank, posted 10-17-2005 6:14 PM DouglasGFrank has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 84 of 125 (252479)
10-17-2005 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by nator
10-17-2005 6:44 PM


Citations etc.
Does this matter. I'm not so interested in Dr. Frank's personal accomplishments as I am in seeing what exactly he means by supporting the statement and what evidence and reasoning he uses to arrive at that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by nator, posted 10-17-2005 6:44 PM nator has replied

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 92 of 125 (252552)
10-17-2005 11:05 PM
Reply to: Message 91 by crashfrog
10-17-2005 10:45 PM


Off topic here
And how can your statement even be true in the light of scientific/mathematical demonstrations that, in fact, random mutation and natural selection can account for the complexity we observe?
The details are off topic here Crash.
However what might be on topic is a detailed disection of the statement itself.
If we play little word games we can make the statement true. It is intellecutally dishonest and totally misleading but perhaps that is what is intended.
If Darwinian mechanisms are defined as being ONLY natural selection and mutations then speciation can be a problem, for example.

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 120 of 125 (252741)
10-18-2005 12:47 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by DouglasGFrank
10-18-2005 11:49 AM


A naive statement?
I think DI uses the list to add credibility to their claim that real scientists support a healthy skepticism regarding science and oppose dogmatic teaching of facts, as often occurs in science classrooms today.
If you really think that is the reason for the publication of the statement and the list it is my opinion you have been fooled and are supporting political manipulation.
In my high school science classes there was a tendancy to the bare presentation of facts without proper context. In my daughters there was a much, much better presentation of the process and reasoning allowing for real analysis. Here in Canada, at least, there has been significant improvement.
Of course, it is entirely possible that science education in the US is not as good. If I remember correctly international studies hint that this is true.
If you have a concern (and I think it is valid to have one) about the state of science education in your country then signing that statment was not a good way to allow for any improvment. mmm No, maybe I should take that back. It is just vaguely possible that, at great cost in court and class time, that a backlash against this kind of political manipulation will result in improvments. However, I don't think it is the best way to go about it.
Again, perhaps you should track the media and get an idea of how that statement is being used. It is NOT the shortcomings of Darwins ideas that are being discussed when it is used. It is a suggestion that there are serious flaws in the current theory.
Even your comment on Gould and punctuated equilibrium shows a lack of your understanding. Even Darwin didn't suggest totally steady rates of change. Certainly Gould isn't proposing anything different from differing rates of change. This kind of misuse of both the statement and of current theory is not likely going to help improve science education. It will more likely waste a lot of time and effort conteracting the deliberatly misleading use of that statement.

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 Message 119 by DouglasGFrank, posted 10-18-2005 11:49 AM DouglasGFrank has not replied

NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9004
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 122 of 125 (252751)
10-18-2005 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by AdminAsgara
10-18-2005 1:10 PM


Re: OFF TOPIC
Message 18
this isn't your post? I don't get it?

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