Author
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Topic: Free will: an illusion
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 17 of 309 (321618)
06-14-2006 9:50 PM
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Reply to: Message 16 by ramoss 06-14-2006 9:46 PM
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I always believed that the worst issue with free will is the idea of an omni-god, sole creator of life. An omniscient god, one who knows the outcome before you are born and still allows your creation, makes the illusion of freewill a moot point.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 16 by ramoss, posted 06-14-2006 9:46 PM | | ramoss has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 26 of 309 (321647)
06-14-2006 11:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by mjfloresta 06-14-2006 11:02 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge vs predetermination
When discussing god and foreknowledge we have to get straight what god you are talking about. Is this god omniscient? Does s/he/it know your life before you are born? Is this god the sole creator of life?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 24 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:02 PM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 29 of 309 (321652)
06-14-2006 11:19 PM
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Reply to: Message 28 by mjfloresta 06-14-2006 11:17 PM
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Re: Foreknowledge vs predetermination
Except that the foreknowledge of an omniscient, sole-creator of life makes freewill merely an illusion. It isn't the foreknowledge alone, it is the knowledge in someone who allowed your creation while knowing your outcome.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 28 by mjfloresta, posted 06-14-2006 11:17 PM | | mjfloresta has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 38 of 309 (321668)
06-15-2006 12:21 AM
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Reply to: Message 36 by mjfloresta 06-15-2006 12:13 AM
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Topic = Freewill
My last reply to you, Message 29, was on topic - Freewill. Are you planning on addressing it?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 36 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:13 AM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 42 of 309 (321673)
06-15-2006 12:33 AM
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Reply to: Message 41 by mjfloresta 06-15-2006 12:26 AM
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Re: Topic = Freewill
No dear, I'm not missing the distinction. The issue is not foreknowledge....it is foreknowledge of an omniscient, sole creator of life. If your god is not omniscient and doesn't know your outcome before you are born then I have no problem. If your god is not the sole creator of life, if some other entity or no entity at all is responsible for life then I have no problem. If your god IS the omniscient, sole creator of life then freewill is merely an illusion. If your god knows that "joe" will die an atheist and still allows joe to be born, then joe has no real choice in the matter. What's more your god just became capricious and cruel.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 41 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:26 AM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: Topic = Freewill
Scenario A: If you are saying that s/he/it isn't omniscient and does not know the outcome of one's life, then I have no problem with it. Scenario B: If god knows in advance that "joe" will die as an atheist and still allowed joe to be born then joe has no choice. It not only is foreknown by god, but in allowing him to be born god is creating someone solely to die an atheist. Again, the issue isn't the foreknowledge by itself. The issue comes into play when you have this foreknowledge exhibited by the sole entity capable of creating one's life. A god who is not the sole creator of life may know the outcome of any given life but not have had the power to create or prevent the creation of this life. If this foreknowledge is perfect that still puts a restriction on freewill that can be discussed. But being the sole entity capable of creating life, and allowing the creation of this life knowing what choices will be made negates any freewill argument.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 43 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 12:51 AM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: Topic = Freewill
If god knows you will live your entire life an atheist, and die that way also...do you have any choice to change that situation? Edited by Asgara, : change "and" to "an"
This message is a reply to: | | Message 45 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:05 AM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: Topic = Freewill
You say you may not have the choice to change your situation but continue to claim that you have the ability to choose. If you do not have the ability to change anything god already knows, then what is freewill?
This message is a reply to: | | Message 48 by mjfloresta, posted 06-15-2006 1:11 AM | | mjfloresta has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 111 of 309 (322032)
06-15-2006 7:32 PM
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Reply to: Message 110 by iano 06-15-2006 7:05 PM
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Re: Suspending Disbelief
So, one must accept that you are right in order to see if you are right? The existance of freewill with your omniscient god IS the issue.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 110 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 7:05 PM | | iano has replied |
Replies to this message: | | Message 112 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 7:52 PM | | Asgara has replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Message 114 of 309 (322047)
06-15-2006 9:00 PM
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Reply to: Message 112 by iano 06-15-2006 7:52 PM
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Re: Suspending Disbelief
For the purpose of this thread I am assuming god's existance. The other two assumptions that you want everyone to accept are the basis for the thread. You are assuming an all knowing god. I am the first to say that if your god is not omniscient then I have no real problem with you postulating freewill. We are saying the two assumptions are mutually exclusive, you are saying you need to accept both assumptions to see that they are correct. No one is going to accept that you are correct so we can see that you are correct LOL
This message is a reply to: | | Message 112 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 7:52 PM | | iano has not replied |
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2333 days) Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: 05-10-2003
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Re: Magic hand waving. The answer to everything?
Right so we can just throw out a couple of contradictory premises and hand wave away all the problems it introduces. Nice. Obviously to you, the concept of omnipotence makes all the little problems just go away in pretty little POOFs. To me this just deapens the underlying issue that Omnipotence and Omniscience are absolutely mutually exclusiv. LOL, when omnipotence is added into the mix they just add to the "cruel god" scenario. If god is truly omnipotent then s/he/it doesn't have to create all those destined to be damned..it really is capriciousness.
This message is a reply to: | | Message 138 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-16-2006 11:28 AM | | PurpleYouko has not replied |
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