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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 103 (457050)
02-21-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:31 PM


First of all, the demonstrative pronoun is "there". "Their" is a possessive pronoun. And "no" is a negative particle -- to believe something that is a fact is "know".
Welcome to EvC.
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But, atheists say that the universe has always been here.
Well, in a sense this is true: since there was no time "before" the universe existed, then there was no "before" before the universe. Hence, for any time you can specify, the universe existed. Yet, the universe probably has only existed for a finite amount of time. Is that a mind blower or what?
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how did it just suddenly appear?
This may be unanswerable in principle. "How" implies processes but I don't see how there could be a "process" before the universe itself existed. But this whole topic is a pretty bizarre one -- personally, I don't think we even have the proper concepts in place to begin to discuss it.
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I have asked atheists and they say it just did, they don't know why.
How is not knowing something a weakness? I don't know anything about how my ancestors arrived to North America. Yet I have a pretty detailed history of their travel from Ohio to Kansas to Oregon to Alaska during the 20th century. Just because you don't know some single detail doesn't mean that you don't know anything at all.
At any rate, I don't think it's possible to know why or how the universe came to exist -- I don't think that the questions even make any sense. Me, I think the universe simply exists -- it poses fewer conceptual difficulties than any of the alternatives.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 12:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 103 (457187)
02-21-2008 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 2:26 PM


Yes people, I know the universe exists, I friggin live in it.
May I ask a question? Why isn't this enough? I mean, I can understand being curious about the origin of the universe, but why should the inability to answer the question be a source of discomfort?
I can't even make sense of the question, "How did the universe begin?" So I just accept that it does.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 2:26 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Blue Jay, posted 02-21-2008 5:54 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:03 AM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 93 of 103 (457419)
02-23-2008 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo
02-23-2008 3:03 AM


I just wanted to get the atheists views of it.
That's fine. It's just that when Christians come onto this site asking those questions, 9 times out of 10 they are thinking that they've managed to disprove atheism and modern cosmology once and for all (and they rarely even care about what atheists views really are -- in fact, they are convinced that they already know all there is to know about atheists). So when someone comes around asking these very same questions, we kind of just assume she is one of those types.
But if you are really curious about what atheists think, you're going to have to ask each and every atheist -- an atheist is just someone who believes that no gods exist. Other than that, there is no standard dogma, and a lot of people have different views on different things. This is especially true about cosmology and Big Bang, which your typical atheist doesn't understand any better than your typical Christian.
So, for this particular atheist's views:
I don't know how the universe began.
I don't even think the question makes sense -- I don't believe anyone has really constructed the concepts necessary to even discuss this rationally.
I just say that the universe simply exists, mostly because I can't conceive of any other alternative.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-23-2008 3:03 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 94 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 1:52 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 103 (457446)
02-23-2008 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 95 by Michael
02-23-2008 2:23 PM


I think this is funny.
If the majority of people in the world were lawyers we'd probably need a word for non-lawyers.
We do have a word for non-lawyers, and, in fact, you (and I) just used it.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Michael, posted 02-23-2008 2:23 PM Michael has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Michael, posted 02-23-2008 2:51 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 98 of 103 (457452)
02-23-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Taz
02-23-2008 1:52 PM


I'd dispute you with this point.
Well, you can dispute all you want.
Basically, the meaning of a word is how people actually use it.
When I use the word, I mean someone who does not believe that a god exists. I could be wrong, but I think that is what CJ means when he is using the word. In fact, it is what the word means whenever it has been used by anyone with whom I have discussed atheism. So we all understand what the other is saying; we are communicating effectively. The word is doing exactly what it is supposed to do -- it is facilitating communication.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 1:52 PM Taz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Taz, posted 02-23-2008 3:32 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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