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Author Topic:   Could the universe have been created for no reason?
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 1 of 103 (457013)
02-21-2008 10:58 AM


Original content hidden, please see Message 3. --Admin
Edited by Admin, : Hide original content.

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

  
Admin
Director
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From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 2 of 103 (457019)
02-21-2008 11:13 AM


Rather than focusing on cosmological questions, I think what truly interests you is whether the universe could really have no purpose. Do I have that right?

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 11:24 AM Admin has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 3 of 103 (457023)
02-21-2008 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Admin
02-21-2008 11:13 AM


Kind of.
I have thought that if their is no purpose for it then why even have it? I think without God, what would be the point of the universe and human existence? If it did have a point, then what is it and why did it just all of a sudden come about?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 02-21-2008 11:13 AM Admin has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by Admin, posted 02-21-2008 12:03 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 6 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 12:11 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
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 Message 10 by PaulK, posted 02-21-2008 12:42 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 4 of 103 (457034)
02-21-2008 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Kind of.
Your Message 3 is a pretty good starting point all by itself. I'll fix this up and promote it. I'll hide your Message 1 content, but you can still see it with peek so you can feed it into the discussion as appropriate.

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 11:24 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
Admin
Director
Posts: 12995
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 5 of 103 (457035)
02-21-2008 12:06 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Rahvin
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Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 6 of 103 (457037)
02-21-2008 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Kind of.
I have thought that if their is no purpose for it then why even have it? I think without God, what would be the point of the universe and human existence? If it did have a point, then what is it and why did it just all of a sudden come about?
Why does it need a point? Why does it need a "purpose?"
What's the purpose of an asteroid 300 lightyears away from Earth where nobody will ever see it, and it will never have an effect we can measure?
What's the purpose of a seed from a plant that's never planted?
Does the thought of a purpose make you feel better? Because quite frankly, your level of comfort is irrelevant to the question of whether the Universe has a "purpose." If you're adding god into the equation simply because you find a need for "purpose," you aren't adding god for any real reason. You could just as well insist Santa Claus exists because he makes children feel better, or that the Tooth Fairy exists to give lost teeth a "purpose."
Here's the bottom line: we know that the Universe exists. We don't know that god exists. He could, or he could not - we have no evidence. And without evidence to suggest he does exist, it is reasonable to assume he does not - just like Santa and the Tooth Fairy.
The only reason to believe in god is faith. Trying to add science into it, or trying to prove his existence (especially by insisting that purpose is required, when it is certainly not) is a fools errend.

This message is a reply to:
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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 7 of 103 (457044)
02-21-2008 12:31 PM


I know the universe exists and I never said their "had" to be a purpose. (I also don't need to believe their is one to make me feel better) I should have worded my statement better. You claim that you don't no that God exists, that's fair. I know he exists (that's my belief you don't have to agree)
But, atheists say that the universe has always been here. I want to know, if it has, how did it just suddenly appear? I have asked atheists and they say it just did, they don't know why.
(I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just so you know)
So when you say, you don't believe their is a God because you have no proof, then that is rational? But, when I say it was created by God because no one knows how it got here, then I'm irrational?
Well, if their is no proof of God (as you say) and their is no proof of how the universe just automatically got here by itself, then why should anyone believe atheists or christians?
Also, don't call me a fool because I believe something you don't. I never said you were a fool because you disagree with my beliefs.
Edited by ChristianJuggalo, : It was scrambled

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Chiroptera, posted 02-21-2008 12:42 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 12 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 12:52 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 26 by Rahvin, posted 02-21-2008 1:29 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied
 Message 89 by fallacycop, posted 02-23-2008 5:47 AM ChristianJuggalo has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 103 (457046)
02-21-2008 12:34 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Kind of.
Welcome to EvC, ChristianJuggalo. lol, that's kinda an oxymoron. Are you a big ICP fan?
I have thought that if their is no purpose for it then why even have it?
So what if there's no purpose and not reason to have it? We do know that it does exist. Must there be a reason?
I think without God, what would be the point of the universe and human existence?
The lack of a point of the universe without a god is not evidence for the need of a god. The conclusion would be that the universe simply exists without a point.

From the OP (opening post or message #1):
I've heard people say that the universe and everything in it just came about through chance and time. I've also heard that it was created by God.
Which one do you choose?
How about both. God created the universe via chance and time.
Eh?

Science fails to recognize the single most potent element of human existence.
Letting the reigns go to the unfolding is faith, faith, faith, faith.
Science has failed our world.
Science has failed our Mother Earth.
-System of a Down, "Science"
He who makes a beast out of himself, gets rid of the pain of being a man.
-Avenged Sevenfold, "Bat Country"

This message is a reply to:
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Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 103 (457050)
02-21-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:31 PM


First of all, the demonstrative pronoun is "there". "Their" is a possessive pronoun. And "no" is a negative particle -- to believe something that is a fact is "know".
Welcome to EvC.
-
But, atheists say that the universe has always been here.
Well, in a sense this is true: since there was no time "before" the universe existed, then there was no "before" before the universe. Hence, for any time you can specify, the universe existed. Yet, the universe probably has only existed for a finite amount of time. Is that a mind blower or what?
-
how did it just suddenly appear?
This may be unanswerable in principle. "How" implies processes but I don't see how there could be a "process" before the universe itself existed. But this whole topic is a pretty bizarre one -- personally, I don't think we even have the proper concepts in place to begin to discuss it.
-
I have asked atheists and they say it just did, they don't know why.
How is not knowing something a weakness? I don't know anything about how my ancestors arrived to North America. Yet I have a pretty detailed history of their travel from Ohio to Kansas to Oregon to Alaska during the 20th century. Just because you don't know some single detail doesn't mean that you don't know anything at all.
At any rate, I don't think it's possible to know why or how the universe came to exist -- I don't think that the questions even make any sense. Me, I think the universe simply exists -- it poses fewer conceptual difficulties than any of the alternatives.

If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

This message is a reply to:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 10 of 103 (457051)
02-21-2008 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 11:24 AM


Re: Kind of.
What's the point of God existing ? By assuming God you're only pushing back the question another level. Your argument just doesn't go anywhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 11:24 AM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 11 of 103 (457055)
02-21-2008 12:50 PM


I don't know how to create that little box to put your question in my post. So I will just answer in my own way.
"Welcome to EvC, ChristianJuggalo. lol, that's kinda an oxymoron. Are you a big ICP fan?"
Thanks for the welcome. I am a big ICP fan, but it's just for the music and lyrics, I don't buy into all of the stuff they say.
"So what if there's no purpose and not reason to have it? We do know that it does exist. Must there be a reason?"
Yes, it does exist, that's a fact. Their doesn't technically have to be a reason for the universe, but what I want to know is (from the atheists point of view) what is the reason for human existence?
Are we just here to live this short and sometimes chaotic and stressful life and then die and never live again on Earth or in the afterlife? That just doesn't seem very exciting to me. We live we die and we never have anything afterwords? To me that's just boring.
"The lack of a point of the universe without a god is not evidence for the need of a god. The conclusion would be that the universe simply exists without a point."
I disagree (that's just my belief, I'm not saying you have to agree) But, how did it form by itself? If someone tells me, it just did, how am I supposed to believe anything?

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved"- John 3:17
If God didn't create the universe, then how did it just get here?

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 12:59 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 20 by Granny Magda, posted 02-21-2008 1:16 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied
 Message 70 by dwise1, posted 02-21-2008 3:44 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 103 (457057)
02-21-2008 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:31 PM


But, atheists say that the universe has always been here. I want to know, if it has, how did it just suddenly appear?
If it has always been here then at no point did it appear.
So when you say, you don't believe their is a God because you have no proof, then that is rational? But, when I say it was created by God because no one knows how it got here, then I'm irrational?
If you want to maintain parsimony, then you shouldn't include god as he is an extraneous entity.
Plus, it just pushes the questions back one step. How did god get here? If he always existed, how did he suddenly appear?

As an aside:
You claim that you don't no that God exists, that's fair. I know he exists (that's my belief you don't have to agree)
If you really do know that god exists, then you really don't have any faith that he does, right?
You don't have faith in things that you know.
I would also say that you cannot know that god exists. How do you know what you think is god really is god.
A sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from the divine. Or the devil could be tricking you

Well, if their is no proof of God (as you say) and their is no proof of how the universe just automatically got here by itself, then why should anyone believe atheists or christians?
Well, some poeple want to maintain parsimony, so that would lead them to side with the athiests.
Me? I believe Jesus.
Also, don't call me a fool because I believe something you don't. I never said you were a fool because you disagree with my beliefs.
I don't think he was explicitly calling you a fool, he was just saying that trying to use science to prove god is something that a fool would do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 12:31 PM ChristianJuggalo has not replied

Replies to this message:
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ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 13 of 103 (457059)
02-21-2008 12:56 PM


OFF SUBJECT
Can someone tell me how to get someone else's quote in my post?

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 103 (457061)
02-21-2008 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo
02-21-2008 12:50 PM


There's a general reply button that doesn't link to any message and there's the green reply button on the bottom right of messages that links to them so we can see which one you're replying too.
Check out this thread for posting tips.
type [qs]quotes are easy[/qs] and it becomes:
quotes are easy


or type [quote]quotes are easy[/quote] and it becomes:
quote:
quotes are easy

what I want to know is (from the atheists point of view) what is the reason for human existence?
Oh, that wasn't clear from what I was reading.
I think that their answer is that there is no reason for human existence.
But, how did it form by itself? If someone tells me, it just did, how am I supposed to believe anything?
By dropping you bias that there has to be a reason.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 12:50 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by ChristianJuggalo, posted 02-21-2008 1:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
ChristianJuggalo 
Suspended Member (Idle past 5851 days)
Posts: 56
From: United States
Joined: 02-21-2008


Message 15 of 103 (457062)
02-21-2008 1:02 PM


"If you really do know that god exists, then you really don't have any faith that he does, right?
You don't have faith in things that you know.
I would also say that you cannot know that god exists. How do you know what you think is god really is god.
A sufficiently advanced technology would be indistinguishable from the divine. Or the devil could be tricking you"
I meant that my faith is so strong that in my heart I know he exists.
Also, "Catholic Scientist", you seem to be (in my opionion) trying to prove me wrong, but you said you believe in Jesus. I'm confused.

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-21-2008 1:04 PM ChristianJuggalo has replied

  
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