EvC Forum: Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

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Topic: Did Adam and eve really have a choice?

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 46 of 219 (246743)
09-27-2005 1:53 PM

Reply to: Message 42 by iano
09-26-2005 5:06 PM

Hi iano,

iano writes:

There is nothing about foreknowledge which means the result was a set up, pre-determined, foregone conclusion etc.
..........It is no problem for God to set up a perfectly fair choice yet know the result

you've said the above (or words to that effect) a few times now. The problem is that if you have omniscient foreknowledge then that limits the choice of others. If God knows what you're going to do and he cannot be wrong. then you only have one real choice: the one that God knows you're going to take. So you haven't really got a fair choice, though you may think you have, your choice is always going to be the one that God foreknows.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 42 by iano, posted 09-26-2005 5:06 PM		iano has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 47 by Heathen, posted 09-27-2005 7:13 PM	Legend has replied
	Message 48 by JustinC, posted 09-27-2005 11:25 PM	Legend has replied
	Message 52 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:35 AM	Legend has replied
	Message 55 by Phat, posted 09-28-2005 7:53 AM	Legend has not replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 50 of 219 (246880)
09-28-2005 5:51 AM

Reply to: Message 47 by Heathen
09-27-2005 7:13 PM

A lot of Christiians, like iano, use the 'free will' argument as a get-out-of-jail card in order to justify facts contradictory to the concept of a loving and omnipotent God, e.g. the existence of evil, diseases, etc. I just don't think you can have it both ways, either God takes responsibility for the effects of his actions or he doesn't. The Christian line is that when good things happen to you it's due to God's work but when bad things happen it's because of your own (or your ancestors') bad choices. My God-given sense of right and wrong tells me this is wrong, man-made and artificial.

Creavolution writes:

Unfortunately it seems I hit 'The Christian Wall'

it's bigger than the Berlin wall and wall of China put together and a lot more difficult to take down

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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	Message 47 by Heathen, posted 09-27-2005 7:13 PM		Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 53 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:48 AM		Legend has replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 51 of 219 (246881)
09-28-2005 6:14 AM

Reply to: Message 48 by JustinC
09-27-2005 11:25 PM

Justin writes:

I don't know if I like this argument. Imagine you could view yourself in the past. You know exactly what you are going to do next, but does that mean that you didn't have a choice in the matter at the time?

yes but that's hindsight, not foresight. If I knew exactly what you were going to do next and I cannot be wrong then you really don't have a choice, do you ?

Justin writes:

Knowledge of someone's future actions doesn't mean they didn't have a choice in their actions.

Yes for you and I, because we might be *wrong* in our knowledge. However, like Asgara says, an omniscient being cannot be wrong and, therefore, our choice is limited to only one.

Justin writes:

There are two good articles on this subject. The one is by Nelson Pike and the other, by Alvin Plantinga, is a rebuttal to his. I can't think of the article names right now, but I'm sure you can google them if you are interestd.

I'll look them up, thanks.

Justin writes:

I used to use the same reasoning as you but I don't think its conclusion is crystal clear.

No it's not. If anything about the Christian religion was crystal clear we wouldn't be having this debate now and I'd still be a practising Christian.

It always made me wonder why an omnipotent God who loves us and wants us to be saved didn't bother communicating all this clearly to us.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

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	Message 48 by JustinC, posted 09-27-2005 11:25 PM		JustinC has not replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 74 of 219 (246964)
09-28-2005 12:43 PM

Reply to: Message 52 by iano
09-28-2005 7:35 AM

iano writes:

What is 'good'? Is it mans definiton that counts or Gods?. Definition of evil? Mans definition or Gods? Choice. What is that word? Is it Gods definition or mans that counts. In all cases it must be Gods definition. We cannot say our definition is a more correct or truer one than his. He knows all the facets which make up these things. We don't

We cannot say our definition of evil is more correct or truer than God's but we have the same ability as him to discern good and evil, is that not so?.

iano writes:

Whatever way Goddidit in giving us the ability to chose that's the way he did it. If there were consequences for that choice - as he defines choice, then that's the way he did it. There is, you would probably agree, absolutely no point in disagreeing or arguing with God about it.

I'm not arguing about the consequences of that choice, I'm just saying that there was no real choice at all.

iano writes:

Man however, being his own god, does precisely that. That is the Olt Testament in a nutshell. Man displaying his desire to be independant of God. Man says things like "If that's the way God did it then I spit in his face" But that's ridiculous. If God said that was the way it is then thats the way it is. Shake you fist all you like it doesn't change the fact that what he says and did matters - not what you want. You may want to be independant of God but that is NOT a choice you get to make

so you *do* agree that God limits our choices ?!

iano writes:

If God found it sufficient to give us choice - on his terms - then that's the choice we have. There is a section in the new testement in which man is told that if God wanted to created creatures simply for destruction so that the creatures he choses to save would be realise how thankful they should be then who is man to say "that's not fair"? God defines whats fair - not man.

Again, I didn't moan about it being fair or not. I just said that, contrary to what you claim, God never gives us any real choice.

iano writes:

As to your point: nobody has even shown how foreknowledge of something influences the choice. The reason being that nobody knows what foreknowledge of choice would actually entail. Nobody, but God knows that situation to say he HAD to influence the result.

Nobody can show how foreknowledge of something influences the choice because nobody has absolute foreknowledge, like God's supposed to. The rest of us can only make educated guesses at something. God knows beyond any doubt what will happen. That means that this is the only thing that CAN happen. - otherwise God would be wrong. This is the only reasonable conclusion.

iano writes:

I ask you to pick a number, either 1 or 2. It can be only one of the two that you pick. I don't know what your going to pick. Your choice.
Then, before you chose, I get foreknowledge as to your choice. How is your choice affected by that knowledge?

Assuming that your foreknowledege is infallible, like God's, my choice is affected in two ways :

1) I'm given a limited set of choices to begin with - I'm not allowed to choose 3,4,5...etc.
2) I am deceived into believing that I have two choices when in fact I have only one - the one you know I'm going to choose. If you know I'm going to pick no.2 then I might consider picking 1 and I might consider picking 2 but, in the end, my hand will always go on no.2...because *you* cannot be wrong.

I hope that answers your question.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 52 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:35 AM		iano has not replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 75 of 219 (246965)
09-28-2005 1:03 PM

Reply to: Message 53 by iano
09-28-2005 7:48 AM

iano writes:

Trawl through Christian testimonies (my first post for example) will often reveal a common denomintor: pain. It might be physical, psycological, emotional whatever....pain tends to get your attention. And God does want to get our attention. If Gods goal is to make us realise our dependance on him would that be achieved in a world where there was no pain, or discomfort or unhappiness.

why not? God is omnipotent, isn't he ? God doesn't like us suffering, does he ? why can't he make us realise our dependance on him in a non-painful way ?

iano writes:

He didn't make it this way but you bet he will use it to achieve his goal.

He didn't make it this way ???!!! And I was under the impression that he created everything, "he alone stretches the heavens" (Isaiah).

Who made it this way then ? I bet it was us with our wrong choices, wasn't it?! Allow me to quote myself from Message 50 (I hate doing that):

Legend writes:

The Christian line is that when good things happen to you it's due to God's work but when bad things happen it's because of your own (or your ancestors') bad choices.

iano writes:

Sheesh....you don't know what your missing.

oh, I do!

iano writes:

If your thinking "what a delusional sap falling for that old fairytale", realise I had 38 years of the other. And it's that which is the fairytale. Note that I'm in a position to compare. Are you?

as it happens, yes I am.

iano writes:

I wish you were. You would never (and could never) go back. Thank God

I *have* gone back. A lot of people on this board have. Sorry to disappoint.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 53 by iano, posted 09-28-2005 7:48 AM		iano has not replied

Legend

Member (Idle past 5037 days)

Posts: 1226

From: Wales, UK

Joined: 05-07-2004

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Message 119 of 219 (247598)
09-30-2005 8:28 AM

Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
09-30-2005 7:42 AM

Re: He chose this reality, not us

Faith writes:

Yes, He did choose this reality, but are you complaining about it really?

I'm personally not complaining - just pointing out that since he chose this reality for us then he cannot be loving and benevolent, as Christians and most of the NT claim.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
	Message 116 by Faith, posted 09-30-2005 7:42 AM		Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 120 by Phat, posted 09-30-2005 8:39 AM		Legend has not replied

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