Evidence for God

Your Topic says evidence for a god, but you write in parentheses that you are not seeking proof that a god exists. If you intend to ask what the difference between Judaism and Islam is, I will say that they are debating about what the same G-d actually said. According to Judaism, the holy prophet of the Islam faith was nothing more than a faker, or false prophet. The Torah clearly warns about false prophets appearing in the future, and explains exactly how one can know if the prophet is true or false. According to Judaism the myriad of religions that are based on Judaism were all started with false prophets. Judaism is the first organized monotheistic religion, and it was not started with a prophet but with a national revelation of over 600,000 grown men who all survived the event. According to Judaism G-d promised never to forsake the Jewish people forever. Any other religion must therefore believe that G-d has broken a promise. This is my knowledge of the subject, and I hope it answers your question.

What I wrote was not said by a prophet, but it was written in the Torah. The Torah was given to the Jews not through a prophet, but through G-d Himself. That is correct, the Jewish claim is that 600,000 grown men heard G-d speak at the same time. They all saw Moses go up the mountain as well. They subsequently all agreed to accept a strict code of laws written in the actual Torah. The Jewish religion is the only religion to make the claim of national revelation with all the members of the revelation remaining alive. Unlike the Christian Bible, there is still only one version of the Torah written in the original language. Let me repeat, Judaism was "NOT" started with one prophet, but with 600,000 adult men hearing G-d's words (This number does not include any women or children under 20, that were also present, and heard G-d speak as well). It says in the Torah (the original five books)in clear black ink that the Jewish nation will never be abandon forever. And after all the years of persecution, the Jewish nation still exists. Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

Go and search out every single religion. The "only" religion that makes this claim is Judaism. The beginning of every other religion is easily ascribed to a single liar. When trying to think of how Judaism was started you will find yourself formulating very far fetched theories. Think of who could have written the Torah, and how the religion was started.Another point to ponder; in many religions (particularly the Christian faith) the founder produces miracles in order to prove that he had had a revelation or that he is a super being. In the Torah, however, Moses shows signs to the Pharaoh and brings about ten plagues, yet the Pharaoh still refuses to believe in G-d. Would experiencing a miracle change your mind about G-d? It did not change the mind of Pharaoh. According to Judaism, even a miracle may not be considered a valid proof of anything. And you think you are a skeptic.

Did you read my challenge in the previous paragraph. I ask you to try to explain how the Jewish religion was started. It is that simple. I am telling you that this religion has a unique claim that "all" other religions do not have. The evidence is a religion that testifies to the validity of the Torah. You must explain a logical framework for how this religion was started from the Torah. Also, try to explain why nobody else was able to do the exact same thing (since only "one" religion cared to start in this manner).

You are ignoring the challenge that I am presenting you. If you cannot solve this problem then you are admitting that there is a difference between Judaism and other religions. For the sake of this debate can you please come up with a mechanism for the beginning of Judaism.Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

You can't use the book of Judges to diprove the Torah. Do you even notice what you are doing. I believe that the book of Judges is true because according to tradition, it was written by a true prophet. However, you have no reason to believe this book, and it must be kept out of the arguement. As far as you are concerned, the book of Judges may be false.

However, you can not point to a single liar in your theory. Rather, the religion already existed. Also, what do you believe was the motive for the creation of this religion?

However, no other religion does make such a claim. I wonder why. If G-d does exist, which religion would you believe more?

You say another religion claims that G-d spoke to more than 600,000 people? Please explain which religion does this.

Explain how you would go about doing this. I was waiting for such a post. Think away.

Let us assume that you are right for argument sake. I want you to explain how the story of the 600,000 hearing G-d speak originated. All you have said is that it was around before the rest of the Torah. Moreover, why is there only one story like this in all of the religions?Another question would be the motive. What motivated the Jews to form this religion? I can tell you the motive of every other religion. When one individual starts a religion he has many things going for him. If you start a religion right now you would receive publicity. You would have power to influence the world. You would receive money from your followers. You would receive worldwide fame. This is how the Church became very wealthy and powerful. All of these motives do not exist in the Torah. If you claim (without evidence of course) that the Torah was compiled by a few people in order to achieve all of what is listed above, you will easily see that you are wrong. The people you are referring to are unknown. So much for fame. The Jewish people live restrictive life styles and do not demand converts. In fact, according to Judaism, the rest of the world is free to act as they please for the most part. Jews do not demand large amounts of money from the rest of the world. Large sections of the Torah speak of curses that will befall "the Jews" if they sin. What motivated the Jews to accept such things readily knowing that the rest of the world will be free from these laws? If you suggest that it was a large conspiracy in order to spread a lie, how many people were in on the conspiracy? If you suggest that 600,000 people conspired in a lie in order to put self restrictive laws on themselves, is that not absurd? If it was only a few tribal leaders, how were they able to convince anyone to join the religion? This is especially true since there is no gain from joining the religion since it allows non believers to act as they please. If I presented you with the Torah, and said that you are Jewish and your forefathers were taken out of Egypt by G-d, and you must live a restrictive lifestyle, what would you say to me? You would probably ask: "How do you know? Prove it? I never knew that I was part of the chosen people that to my knowledge never existed." How would you form such a religion? And if this guy managed to convince a tribe to follow in this restrictive religion full of warnings and curses for this chosen people, why is this group of individuals completely unknown? Still a further problem; if these people wished to convince a whole nation that they were chosen by G-d to live a restrictive lifestyle, why was weird stories like the great flood put into the book? This, if anything, would hurt the chances of spreading such a religion. That is, of course, unless a great flood really did happen. Was this group of people smart or stupid? A final question; if all of this is really possible, and it is not hard to create a story with 600,000 people hearing the voice of G-d, why has no other religion attempted to do this? What is the motive, and how would you go about doing it? EXPLAIN PLEASEEdited by Open MInd, : No reason given.

Unfortunately, you will not have anyone believing that they are part of those billion people. You will convince nobody of this text. How was anyone convinced of the Torah?

You are wrong. Religions are not started to explain stuff. They are started for fame, money, and power.

I am a proof that the Torah could not have started that way. I do not believe you. There is no evidence of what you are saying. You will definitely not make me change my lifestyle because of your text.Do you see what I am getting at? You will never be able to sell such a text to anyone. Did you ever read the Torah? Probably not. You may have read a version of a Christian translation, but you did not read from an actual Torah scroll. Every Torah scroll in use today is identical with the exception of a single letter that does not change the meaning of the word. If you read from those than you will know exactly what is written in the Torah, not a translation from a "different religion." If you are really interested, according to tradition, the actual Torah scroll was written by Moses; in the Torah he says to the Jews,"YOU heard G-d speak." And he says,"YOU saw me go up and speak to G-d." If this conversation really took place, and Moses was the one who wrote the Torah and gave it to the Jews, there is no question that G-d spoke to all of the Jews. This is simple logic. If G-d did not speak to all of the Jews than Moses was lying straight to their faces. This lie would be proven false. That is no way to start a religion, and it is not possible for a fake religion to start in this manner. That is why, if you did not notice, nobody in this discussion wants to admit that Moses wrote the Torah. The documentary "hypothesis" claims that the author must have been more than one person. Now you understand why. The Torah written by Moses implies G-d speaking to the Jews.

I will explain to you all how every religion was invented. You probably do not need me to explain it to you because you have probably given it enough thought on your own. However, you may all be wondering how it is possible that all of the people who believe in there religion could be so dumb. This is a problem too because most of the world believes in one religion or another. Now I myself happen to be what you would call a naive creationist. However, I am not fooled by rbp's book by prophet lurr (discussed earlier in this thread). Why will I not be fooled? Because I believe that he may be lying; in fact I am certain that he is lying. So how does religion start?Some of the ancient religions looked exactly like this website. Every single person looked at the world and saw another god. The sun, moon , stars, rivers, wind, and fire could all be thought of as gods. Nobody knew one way or another, and all of the early religions were unorganized fairy tales.Most modern religions are organized groups. These religions all seem to start in the same way. One man was able to speak to some god. However, this god was not going to speak to anyone else because this individual was the last prophet. Why do people believe in this man? The answer is simple; he is able to say it with such power of conviction, and nobody can prove him wrong. He says that he was spoken to, why should he lie? He looks like a holy man. Also, he may be able to perform some magic tricks which the people cannot understand. Since they have no way of disproving him they may end up believing him.But why does anyone want to start the religion in the first place? The answer is simple. He will ask everyone to give him money in order to be forgiven for their "sins." He will also use this religion as a method of gaining power over people, and he will not have to actually work a day in his life. He will be famous for the rest of his life. It must be fun to have everyone calling you a prophet. He may even find some women that find him to be quite impressive. It is also possible that this person was completely insane. Nobody, does something without a purpose. Once a religion is in place, any person with charisma can claim to be the next prophet, and he can be given donations in order to forgive peoples sins. Again, there is money, power, and fame. All of these people are liars, but none of them live in the same time period as the founder of the religion. A religion can have many liars once it is already started. But, the beginning of almost every religion can be traced back to a single liar.Edited by Open MInd, : No reason given.