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Author
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Topic: Is God determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence?
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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quote:
I've noticed that there are at least few here who seem to subscribe to this view. It was crashfrog that pointed out some claim that God does not allow his existence to be scientifically substantiated, because to do so would eliminate the need for faith.
While I agree with the concept that some aspects of God are currently beyond our ability to directly experience, I wouldn't go so far as to say that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence. Furthermore, I don't think that simply believing that God exists necessarilly equals having faith in him. In short, my question related to God's existence is related to two complementary positions: Do you think God is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence -- or do you think that God is determined to allow ample proof or evidence of his existence?
Whichever way you answer, I would like to also hear why you think this. I will interject my thoughts from my own Judeo-Christian perspective and also attempt to explain why I think God is actually determined to allow proof and evidence of his existence -- and why thinking that he is determined to allow no proof or evidence of his existence is probably a major error in our thinking based on our own limited experiences. Although this discusion is primarilly targetted against the idea of God conceiling himself so as to generate "faith", I do believe that this discussion also has relevance to the whole "intelligent design" discusion as well. In addition to this, I welcome input from other faith systems that are not considered Judeo-Christian, including thoughts about God (or gods) from pantheistic, panentheisitic, agnostic or even other monotheistic faiths that I may not be aware of outside the scope of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. I would also welcome any atheistic perspectives on this matter.
These comments are strictly about the Christian and Muslim concepts of God. Jerusalem has always been a focal point of all Israelites prophets, but Jesus avoided Jerusalem as any other city because it was a city of Pharisees (who have repeatedly debunked Jesus), disputers, scribes, unbelievers, and shallow believers. Socialism preached by Jesus does not address villagers, but inhabitants of large cities. Contrary to that Muhammad — goes to the cave of Hira but each time retunes to the godless city of Makkah to carry out his mission. Jesus never preached and Christianity has never reached the full conscientiousness of one true God. In fact, Christianity has only a vivid concept of the divine and not a clear idea of God. The mission of Muhammad — was to make the gospels’ image of God clearer and closer to the human mind and taught that Jesus failed to accomplish. In the gospels’ God is so-called father; in the Glorious Qur’aan, God is master. In the gospels God is vaguely loved; in the Glorious Qur’aan, God is loved clearly and respected. Jesus taught that the Christian God is the lord of the individual world (people and souls) only, while Lucifer holds the reins of the material world. That is why the Christian belief in God preconditions inward freedom, while Muhammad — taught that the Islaamic belief in Allaah implies a demand for the outward freedom as well. The two essential dogmas of Islaam (Allaahu Akbar God is the Greatest) and the aqeedah (la ilaha illallah There is no deity but Allaah) are at the same time two most revolutionary devices in Islaam. In the gospels we find the frequent rhetoric based on certain words like blessed, holy, angel, eternal, life, heaven, Pharisee, sin, love, repentance, forgiveness, mystery, body (as the bearer of sin), soul, purification, salvation and so on. In the Glorious Qur’aan, the same terms are based on an image of the world, the foreground of which is now occupied by entirely definite and realistic terms such as: reason, justice, health, weapons, battle position, strength, buying, contract, pledge, writing, cleanliness, force, struggle, trade, fruit, decisiveness, caution, punishment, profit, revenge, hunt, medicine, and so on. We can draw similar conclusions by comparing Mosque and Church. A Mosque is a place for people, while a church is God’s temple. In the Mosque, an atmosphere of rationality prevails; in a church it is an atmosphere of mystery and mysticism. A Mosque is always the focus of activity, close to the market and at the heart of the settlement, while the church seems too elevated for a similar position. The architecture of the church tends to stress ceremonious silence, darkness, height, and a hint of the other world. Contrary to that in a Mosque, people are supposed to discus certain very earthly issues after the prayers. The New Testament turn to the man, the Glorious Qur’aan turns to the people, emerging the principle of the whole community. Christianity and materialism cannot produce a system of law. Law as seen by Christians, is an illusory attempt to bring this world into order, an attempt that has always failed as it is inevitably bound to fail in the end. Jesus came to restore (hollow) love and not justice. Nonetheless, love does not belong to this world; it is a heavenly virtue according to St. Thomas Aquinas. Jesus did not recognize the need for judges (Luke 12:13-15). Law is objective, involved in politics and society while totally facing the world. But at the same time, it includes norms, ethics, and tries to bring into this world the principle of justice, which is a moral principle. As such law is a bipolar unity: like man and Islaam. That is why Christianity does not have a clear concept of God.
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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quote:
I take it that you think that God is determined to allow both proof and evidence of his existence?
Muslims believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only God {Allah/Allaah} are all around us. The God of Islaam repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God). One who even reads the English transaltion (transaltion has its limitations) of Qur'aan can find this himself, since nothing is preconditioned such as: 'you have to believe it' or "it cannot be explained" or 'man can't understand this' etcetera. To read the English translation of Qur'aan click here and with subject index here. This message has been edited by Checkmate, 05-18-2005 05:42 AM
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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Re: Christian God only exists in the scriptures
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I can also point to deists, Muslims, and practictioners of Judaism -- all of whom within their various segments have concluded philosophical leanings which are very similar to the Christian concept of creation.
Islaam is not even close to Christianity. Neither Islaam gives any status to Christianity. Remote similarities does not count, which can be found between a number of unequals. This message has been edited by Checkmate, 05-19-2005 01:02 AM
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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Re: Christian God only exists in the scriptures
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Remote similarities? You've got to be joking right? Hmmm...let's take a look at what James Abdul Rahim Gaudet, Rabia Mills and Syed Mumtaz Ali have to say about that at the following site: muslim-canada.org - This website is for sale! - muslim canada Resources and Information.
No, I am not joking and I don't have to. Let us look at your source where few Morons are fishing for converts, they are as follows. James Abdul Rahim Gaudet, Rabia Mills and Syed Mumtaz Ali The first two are obviously converts and clueless of Islaam (yes, I mean clueless) and the 3rd and last one is a Muslim and I doubt 85% that he has NO Islaamic upbringing, Islaamic education and understanding, whatsoever. So if I sit down with these people and ask few basic questions about Islaam and Qur'aan, they will flunk badly. If you rely on sources like that, I doubt you would ever know the facts.
These fools don't even know that Glorious Qur'aan gives no status to Christianity and if any Muslim or Christian can prove by quoting a single verse from Qur'aan to this effect , I will reward him or her with $ 500.00 cash instantly. quote:
Muslim: God is omnipotent, omniscient, immanent within His creation yet transcendent.
Christian: God is omnipotent, omniscient, immanent within His creation yet transcendent. Muslim: God has a unique relationship with humans (master and servant).
Christian: God has a unique relationship with humans. (master and servant).
Hogwash, this is a boldface lie and/or distortion of truth. Let us briefly examine few facts: Jerusalem has always been a focal point of all Israelites prophets, but Jesus avoided Jerusalem as any other city because it was a city of Pharisees (who have repeatedly debunked Jesus), disputers, scribes, unbelievers, and shallow believers. Socialism preached by Jesus does not address villagers, but inhabitants of large cities. Contrary to that Muhammad — goes to the cave of Hira but each time retunes to the godless city of Makkah to carry out his mission.
[size=16][B]Jesus never preached and Christianity has never reached the full conscientiousness of one true God. In fact, Christianity has only a vivid concept of the divine and not a clear idea of God.[/size][/b] The mission of Muhammad — was to make the gospels’ image of God clearer and closer to the human mind and taught what Jesus failed to accomplish. In the gospels’ God is so-called father; in the Glorious Qur’aan, God is master. In the gospels God is vaguely loved; in the Glorious Qur’aan, God is loved clearly and respected. Jesus taught that the Christian God is the lord of the individual world (people and souls) only, while Lucifer holds the reins of the material world. That is why the Christian belief in God preconditions inward freedom, while Muhammad — taught that the Islaamic belief in Allaah implies a demand for the outward freedom as well. The two essential dogmas of Islaam (Allaahu Akbar God is the Greatest) and the aqeedah (la ilaha illallah There is no deity but Allaah) are at the same time two most revolutionary devices in Islaam. While Jesus preached and practiced turning the family against each other, not letting people say farewell to their families and preventing people from burying their dead father; Muhammad — taught (notice the six commands in a single verse), Surah An-Nahl 90
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Verily, Allh enjoins Al-‘Adl (i.e. justice and worshipping none but Allh Alone - Islmic Monotheism) and Al-Ihsn (i.e. to be patient in performing your duties to Allh, totally for Allh’s sake and in accordance with the Sunnah (legal ways) of the Prophet — in a perfect manner), and giving (help) to kith and kin {1} (i.e. all that Allh has ordered you to give them e.g., wealth, visiting, looking after them, or any other kind of help), and forbids Al-Fahsh’ (i.e. all evil deeds, e.g. illegal sexual acts, disobedience of parents, polytheism, to tell lies, to give false witness, to kill a life without right), and Al-Munkar (i.e. all that is prohibited by Islmic law: polytheism of every kind, disbelief and every kind of evil deeds), and Al-Baghy (i.e. all kinds of oppression). He admonishes you, that you may take heed. {1} (V.16: 90) Degree of kinship: First of all, your parents, then your offspring, then your brothers and sisters, then your paternal uncles and aunts (from your father’s side), then your maternal uncles and aunts (from your mother’s side), and then other relatives. In the gospels we find the frequent rhetoric based on certain words like blessed, holy, angel, eternal, life, heaven, Pharisee, sin, love, repentance, forgiveness, mystery, body (as the bearer of sin), soul, purification, salvation and so on. In the Glorious Qur’aan, the same terms are based on an image of the world, the foreground of which is now occupied by entirely definite and realistic terms such as: reason, justice, health, weapons, battle position, strength, buying, contract, pledge, writing, cleanliness, force, struggle, trade, fruit, decisiveness, caution, punishment, profit, revenge, hunt, medicine, and so on. We can draw similar conclusions by comparing Mosque and Church. A Mosque is a place for people, while a church is God’s temple. In the Mosque, an atmosphere of rationality prevails; in a church it is an atmosphere of mystery and mysticism. A Mosque is always the focus of activity, close to the market and at the heart of the settlement, while the church seems too elevated for a similar position. The architecture of the church tends to stress ceremonious silence, darkness, height, and a hint of the other world. Contrary to that in a Mosque, people are supposed to discus certain very earthly issues after the prayers. That website is a classic example of blind leading blind. P.S. I am not here to convert people, frankly I don't concern myself about that. But, what you should know that there is a considerable number of Muslims out there, absolutely ignorant of Islaam and especially Qur'aan. This message has been edited by Checkmate, 05-19-2005 01:59 PM
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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Re: Christian God only exists in the scriptures
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Consequently, you've already stated exactly what many Christians state concerning God and creation when you said the following: Checkmate writes:
Muslims believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only God {Allah/Allaah} are all around us. The God of Islaam repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God).
I am not aware of any particular claims like that. Because among Christians everyone has his own interpretation. However, since a religion is judged by its scripture, therefore, the $ 64 question is that can Christians can prove their claims using the NT? The answer is no. The second question is, can they prove this by using the Bible, the answer again is no. That is why Jews and Christians produce 100% atheists or evolutionists and/or dogma rejecters or least converts to other religions. I cannot accept your assertion, since it is contrary to all known facts.
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For example, one could take your sentences above and state the exact same thing while substituting Christians for Muslims, etc...
Yes, one can do that? But again, can they prove it using their scripture?
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Mr. Ex Nihilo imitating Checkmate's post writes:
Christian's believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only Triune God {Father/Son/Holy Spirit} are all around us. The God of Christianity repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God).
Please quote explicitly verses from the New Testament in support of your claims. Here is the Checkmate to you:
Mind you that the parts of NT that you would quote and/or interpret must be construed with reference to the significance of the whole. Your claims and/or interpretation must be consistent with the rest of New Testament and/or the Bible. This simply means that no parts of the New Testament, for example, can contradict Moses, the Prophets, the Writings, or Jesus and be correct! Let me see what you got, my friend? quote:
Now, of course, your next statement has got me curious. Checkmate writes:
One who even reads the English transaltion (transaltion has its limitations) of Qur'aan can find this himself, since nothing is preconditioned such as: 'you have to believe it' or "it cannot be explained" or 'man can't understand this' etcetera. Could you explain this further please? I'd like to know exactly what you're saying here.
For answer please carefully read this. This link briefly talks about transaltion, which should suffice to get my point across.
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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Re: Christian God only exists in the scriptures
Checkmate writes: No, I am not joking and I don't have to. Let us look at your source where few Morons are fishing for converts, they are as follows.
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Dude, this website is sponsored by the The Canadian Society of Muslims. Here's the information from their Index page. I see nothing here about Mormonsim... muslim-canada.org - This website is for sale! - muslim canada Resources and Information. Furthermore, reading their index page, I see the following: muslim-canada.org - This website is for sale! - muslim canada Resources and Information. About this website. . . writes: The Canadian Society of Muslims, al hamdu li Allah, operates two Internet sites and these websites encompass a great deal of material which fall into three distinct categories of law. On this website we will follow this traditional method for classifying knowledge: Part I Fiqh Akbar / Fiqh Awwal - consists of Aqaid (faith and belief) Part II Fiqh Ausath / Fiqh Duwwam - consists of all mundane as well as spiritual acts. Part III Fiqh Asghar / al-Akhir - consists of worship (Ibadat) and other devotional practices. It is important to note that the second category of Fiqh Ausath (Sufism) is the most important category in terms of the quality of one's devotions. The achievement of ever-increasing levels of purity and sincerity and hence acceptance by Allah, depends entirely upon the level and quality of sincerity and the purpose behind one's acts. If one does not comply with the requirements of Fiqh Ausath, those acts will not qualify for divine acceptance or reward because insincere actions are hypocritical and are consequently unworthy of divine reward. The Prophet Muhammad p.b.u.h. has said, "[there are] two qualities [which] the hypocrite lacks - good intentions and religious insight." Fiqh Ausath covers both of these aspects: i) sincerity of intention (Ikhlas) and, ii) religious insight (the esoteric knowledge of Ihsan [authentic sufism, or tasawwuf ]) Therefore, to be of any real benefit, Fiqh Akbar and Fiqh Asghar must comply with Fiqh Ausath. The Hadith literature (traditions of the Prophet p.b.u.h.) have established the dictum of law which states, actions are judged by (or are dependant upon) motivation and intention, and also, God looks not at your figures (or faces) and He looks not at your wealth, but He does look at your hearts and your deeds. (Sahih Bukhari and Muslim)
This does not proves anything to me as a Muslim, neither it means anyting to me. That website may belong to anyone and they may be Muslims or pseudo-Muslims or Christian missionaries (yes they have this kind of websites to dupe the world). Bottom line if that Muslims' belief is based on Qur'aan and Sunnah teachings and not on Internet. Muslims don't go to learn Islaam on websites, especially me.
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Checkmate writes:
These fools don't even know that Glorious Qur'aan gives no status to Christianity and if any Muslim or Christian can prove by quoting a single verse from Qur'aan to this effect , I will reward him or her with $ 500.00 cash instantly. Yep -- this is usually translated as "Whatever you say, I won't believe you."
You are operating with ZERO knowledge of Islaam, and this was the reason you posted a link of a website that matched your fancy.
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Checkmate writes: Hogwash, this is a boldface lie and/or distortion of truth. Oh...so Muslims do not believe in a Second Coming of Christ after all? *slaps forehead*
That is off the topic, what second coming has to do with the issue we are discussing. So, when you don't have a reasoned response, you like to change the topic.
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Now I understand... Um...Checkmate, here's the thing, I'm totlaly not interested in discussing this stuff with you because you are going wildly off topic by attempting to defend Islam.
This is called "projection" which is often a Christian thing to weasel out. Anyway, feeling are mutual, perhaps we can do after you augment your studies about Islaam. Right now you can't even talk to a 2nd grader on this subject.
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You can say what you want -- but Islam is considered a part of the Judeo-Christian family. I've read nothing in your post to counter that concensus amongst world-class scholars either. Whether that offends you or not, it still remains a fact that anyone can look at and examine this development in the course of human history.
Says who? And who are those world class scholars and how many you know and have read their work? Can you name them all please with their publications? Or your version of scholar is any "John Doe" with a PC with Internet connection and ability to type "gobbledygook?"
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Now, if you wish to start a thread concerning the differences between Islam and Christianity, go ahead and float your boat dude.
I have no desire for that.
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I've pointed to enough similarities to validate my claim, many of which you haven't even addressed except to claim that they're somehow converted Mormons and not actually "true Muslims" -- whatever the hell that means.
Had you read my post carefully, you would have know that I wrote "moron" and not mormon. Using your logice we can prove that a mule is a man or vice versa, since the similarities between a mule and man are: Both have penis Both have two ears Both have two eys Both have ass Both have stomach Both have back Both have nose Both have teeth Both have tongue... But this is not way of eploring the similarities and I cannot accept your assertions, which are contrary to know facts. In fact, you are trying to teach me my faith, it is like trying to teach chicken how to lay eggs.
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Take it elsewhere, because it's off-topic here.
I think it is you who is off topic and frustrated as well.
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Now, about you other other post (message 68), that's more on-topic and I will respond to that when I have a chance. Though I suspect that you will be disappointed with my answers.
We will see that.
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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Checkmate
Inactive Member
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Re: Christian God only exists in the scriptures
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Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Consequently, you've already stated exactly what many Christians state concerning God and creation when you said the following: Checkmate writes: Muslims believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only God {Allah/Allaah} are all around us. The God of Islaam repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God). Checkmate writes:
I am not aware of any particular claims like that. How about this one? NIV writes:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Certainly this passage found in Romans 1:18-23 indicates that "Christians believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only Trinue God {Father, Son & Holy Spirit} are all around us. The God of Christianity repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God)."
Am I suppose to take your copy and paste of Roman as a valid response? I don't think so. Because it does not even come close to what you are trying to prove. Just the presence of mere word "heavens" proves nothing, which you cannot elaborate what heaven is, conclusively and how it convince Christians about the god's existance without parroting?
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Checkmate writes:
Because among Christians everyone has his own interpretation. However, since a religion is judged by its scripture, therefore, the $ 64 question is that can Christians can prove their claims using the NT? Do you mean can I prove my claims that non-Christians can see the Judeo-Christian God in nature? If so, then I just pointed to one in Romans in the above Scriptural passage. Or do you mean something else entirely that is *sigh* once again OFF TOPIC?
Projection and desperation again. I did not say anyting about "nature" you said it andI reject it outright to be off target.
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Checkmate writes:
The answer is no. No to what? What are you talking about?
No comments
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CHeckmate writes:
The second question is, can they prove this by using the Bible, the answer again is no. What is "this" referring to? Checkmate writes:
That is why Jews and Christians produce 100% atheists or evolutionists and/or dogma rejecters or least converts to other religions. I cannot accept your assertion, since it is contrary to all known facts. What are you talking about? It seems as though you're just using this post as an opporunity to criticize my own Catholic faith -- which is really off topic.
First of all I didn't know your belief until now and I mentioned a fact. But you are also in denial like many other Christians. The only way you can save the face is to accuse me for attacking your faith, falsely.
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Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
For example, one could take your sentences above and state the exact same thing while substituting Christians for Muslims, etc... Yes. I've already done this: NIV writes:
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Furthermore, St. Paul has expressed already that where the "Law" is not observed that the law of people's hearts (which has been inscribed by God himself from the very beiginning) is sufficient. Romans 2:13-15 writes: For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) Mr. Ex Nihilo imitating Checkmate's post writes: Christian's believe that both the proof and/or existance of One and Only Triune God {Father/Son/Holy Spirit} are all around us. The God of Christianity repeatedly ask the man to ponder and see the signs of His existance around him, and believe in Him (God). Checkmate writes:
Please quote explicitly verses from the New Testament in support of your claims. I already have. Here is the Checkmate to you:
Mind you that the parts of NT that you would quote and/or interpret must be construed with reference to the significance of the whole. Your claims and/or interpretation must be consistent with the rest of New Testament and/or the Bible. This simply means that no parts of the New Testament, for example, can contradict Moses, the Prophets, the Writings, or Jesus and be correct! Already did it.
Doesn't proves anything and does not make sense as usual.
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However, you seem to be overlooking that I'm Catholic, so, in my belief, revelation is not limited to the Scriptures alone anyway. I believe in both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scriptures.
Am I obligated to know that you are Catholic? I don't think so. However, since you have told me that and brought up something else as well, so why don't you present the alleged "Sacred Tradition" with unbroken chain of narrations and/or transmissions all the way to Jesus?You think you can do that, as a Catholic? I don't think so!!!
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Checkmate writes:
Let me see what you got, my friend? Would you like me to go into detail about the traditional Catholic beliefs regarding non-Christians and their potential for heaven? Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Now, of course, your next statement has got me curious. Checkmate writes: One who even reads the English transaltion (transaltion has its limitations) of Qur'aan can find this himself, since nothing is preconditioned such as: 'you have to believe it' or "it cannot be explained" or 'man can't understand this' etcetera. Mr. Ex Nihilo writes:
Could you explain this further please? I'd like to know exactly what you're saying here.
No comments
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Checkmate writes:
For answer please carefully read this. This link briefly talks about transaltion, which should suffice to get my point across. um...naahhhhhh. You know what? I've typed a lot of things in this thread here from my own words (or else seriously took the time to find information that is extremely consistent with the things I've been trying to express and tried really hard to put them in my own words). I'm tired of typing and reading all the time. If you want me to read something regarding the "translation of the Koran into English", then type in your own words something that you believe and present it in ANOTHER THREAD, m'kay?
I tried to edcuate you, but obviously you have closed the door of knowledge for yourself. How come you can post a link with non-sense and try to teach me Islaam is fair and when I post a link to get my point accorss and to edcuate you, becomes a foul? What is that is my website and that is my article? Nevertheless, you were presented the informaiton that you didn't know and you can verify anywhere, unlike your link with fallacious information about Islaam. Final word: I don't think you can engage is a rational, reasoned and intellectual dialogue with me, while operating with ZERO knowledge of Islaam and relying of Internet websites. This will be the end of our dialogue!
"An uninformed person cannot conceptualize the essence of knowledge nor its sublimity. One who fails to conceptualize something, its significance will never become rooted in the heart."
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