GOD IS DEAD

He was wrong. Without God, my moral considerations have increased, no crisis ever happened, and my life has been more fulfilling than I ever thought possible.Not only was he wrong, he was diametrically incorrect. No it's not.God did not "die", He never existed in the first place.
I recognize order in the universe.
My life has more meaning and purpose than anything I can ever imagine.I have yet to meet a single person (especially religious people) that can even hint at more 'meaning' or 'purpose' then what I already have. The only experiences that even come close are those like laughing babies... who are even further from knowing God than I am.Recognizing the beauty of truth for its reality grants a sense of freedom, invigorating awe, and responsibility that I've never thought conceivable from anywhere else. Likely true.But, well, the majority of people aren't very nice and seem prone to panic. I don't really respect 'the majority of people'. *looks around*Didn't happen. Not only will they still bear the hardships and have a desire to live, but it will be a greater desire, and easier life than ever before.I never felt so much love, beauty, awe, respect or empathy until I realized just how foolish it was to follow 'what someone says' instead of 'what is real'.Reality is the most powerful force around us. It tames planets, stars, and even Gods. Every single God ever created by man has always been tamed by reality. When we work along with this force, instead of against it, our lives begin to make sense. Ways to deal with problems become apparant. How to be a good person and live a moral life becomes embedded in our very core. You can see how things hurt others, how to avoid and prevent such things... and how to help.

Reality unites all of us. Reality is beyond the most advanced minds on the planet. We don't understand reality fully at all. We likely never will. However, the basics are available to every one of us. Reality unites ALL of us, and gives meaning to everyone's life. Even if they don't realize it. What do you mean by 'higher purpose'? By your statement here, you seem to mean 'some sort of afterlife'. In that case, the answer I'm able to get from reality so far is "I don't know". Perhaps you would be able to find a more informative answer. Personally, I don't understand why anyone thinks an afterlife is a 'higher' purpose, though. That doesn't make sense to me.Following reality is not a higher purpose in itself, it's not even a regular-purpose. It's more of an "admittance of the situation we find ourselves in". Purpose (and possibly 'higher purpose', if you can explain the term to me) comes after you are able to accept Reality. Because only then are you able to gather the information you require to understand your purpose. However, I can tell you that following our baseless imagination (or worse, someone elses) as a 'life-purpose' is rather... immature. Why is there some assumed connection between the existense of objective morality and the existence of higher meanings or goals? I don't understand how the two are related. But, well, I fully admit I'm not a nihilist. Seriously... who cares what Nietzshe said? (Especially when it's trivial to show he is mistaken). Shouldn't it matter what Nietzshe can show to be true? Sounds to me like Nietzshe is doing what a lot of people do. Believing his own imagination somehow overrides reality. I prove that wrong every time I stub my toe on something I didn't believe was in my way.

No. Reality just is. It's not a purpose any more than a rock is a purpose. That's why I said: Message 8First of all, it's not a game. It's the most serious thing in all of our lives. If finding the purpose of reality was as simple as me telling you the answer, it certainly would be a simple game, though. I cannot tell you the purpose of reality because I do not know it myself. I can tell you my purpose in reality, but I cannot tell you yours. I'm most certainly not. No, in fact, I stated this was NOT what I'm saying in my last message. I've repeated it for you above. I am saying there is a purpose to life. I have yet to meet anyone who can even imagine a 'higher' purpose for my life than the one I currently have. ...if that helps you at all.If by 'higher' you mean 'some specific afterlife' or 'God-given' or some other imagination-based thought like that, than I don't agree that such an idea is actually 'higher' in any way.I am not a hedonist who likes life, by any means.I do, however, have purpose and meaning. More purpose and more meaning than anything I've ever heard of. More than anyone has ever proposed to me. More than any afterlife anyone's ever mentioned to me, more than anything promised or talked about by anyone's God.But, well, that's to be expected with how I discovered my purpose. For me, it's an ongoing process of adapting the best purposes I come across. After a few years, a lot of searching, a lot of questions, and a lot of experimenting... I understand what my purpose is. And it's been many years since I've heard anything that even sounds like it might possibly be better in any way. I'm still open to suggestions, though.Not sure if you consider that 'higher'. "Higher" is very subjective. I don't understand why it's higher. Wouldn't it be higher to live a sinless and virtuous life without the anticipation of anything? Wouldn't it be higher still if you did it because it was right instead of because some God said it was right? Love, and peace and balance and enlightenment are a part of reality. How are they trivial?They certainly are higher goals than soccer and cars.
They certainly are higher goals than "anticipating heaven".
They certainly are higher goals than "living a sinless and virtuous life" (simply because it is done for others, instead of one's self).
They certainly are higher goals than "doing what a God told me to".Don't you agree?Are you sure you understand what "higher" purpose means? What you seem to say is "higher" seems kind of petty and low to me.

Why do you seem to think it is so obvious that we do? I have never seen some scale of purpose ranked by species. How so? I don't think their lives are meaningless at all. I think they are full of meaning. They provide so much beauty and diversification. Why do you consider such things meaningless? I don't understand. What, specifically, makes our presence more important or special than that ofthe foxes? I pursue my life with passion, a fox pursues it's life with passion. Why do you think a fox is so obviously non-important? I am born of dust, and I will turn to dust. But I do so with great meaning and purpose. Why do you think we do not have meaning or purpose? Why do you find reality meaningless, bleak and having cold irrelevance?I live in reality. I have more meaning than I've ever thought possible. My life is full of love and passion. When I look out my window, all I see is purpose and beauty.I understand, and have experienced, many bleak and cold aspects of life. But it does not control reality.Why do think it is impossible for there to be great meaning and purpose in things just because you do not understand those things to have such? Isn't it possible it is simply a limitation of your own?

That's nice of you to say, but I have shown you that the "higher" purposes you have proposed are not all that "high" at all. That is not imagined, that is reality. If you cannot provide me with a "higher" purpose, then I will retain my own.If all you have is a few words from your imagination, you'll excuse me if they do not sway me from following reality.Besides, who's to say your garden turtle or pekingese doesn't have a great purpose to themselves?

Again, can you show this? Where is this link between "God's existance" and "anything's signifigance or importance"? I don't understand why you think the two are linked. Why is that? You keep saying things, yet you give no reason for anyone to agree with you. Why can't a turtle have a great purpose in life beyond it's personal one? Why can't that purpose be something you don't understand? Why can't all that be a part of reality without God?Why do think something has to have an affect that you acknowledge as "great" in order for it to actually be a significant aspect of the universe? I assure you, you're not that important. Why do you think that "what something is made from" has any bearing on it's purpose? That doesn't make sense to me, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Why are you so hung-up on material things?Purpose and meaning are extremely non-material. They are not so limited by physical qualifications.

So am I. The best thing either of us has come up with as a purpose for this Universe is "we don't know". If you have anything more interesting then that, I'm certainly very curious. I have no interest in imagination, though. However, let's look at some facts about this thread:1. You ask about a purpose for the Universe. Message 1
2. I say I don't know. Message 8
3. You say you want a "higher" purpose, and explain what you mean. Message 9
4. I show you how your proposed "higher" purpose is not very high and how certain realistic purposes are even higher. Message 11
5. You again ask about a purpose for the Universe. Message 18My question to you is:If a known-to-exist, reality-based purpose can put all the "higher" purposes you can imagine to shame... why is that not good enough? You can't even imagine something that might possibly be better. And this reality-based purpose has the added benefit that it's actually real and feasible to pursue. Why not give it a try? Why not stick with that at least until you are able to imagine something that actually is better? The only reason I keep saying that, is because you keep saying things like "if there is no GOD, we have no purpose". This is obviously untrue.
I am, however, interested in any special purpose you can come up with. I may adapt my own if it is indeed "higher" in any way. I'm not sure if your turtle has a very special purpose or not. Neither do I claim you don't know it. I certainly think it's possible your turtle has a purpose, and that it's possible you are unaware. That's what I said, anyway. I have a mission, and I have a purpose. My mission and purpose do not depend upon where I came from. God or no God, Big Bang or no Big Bang, chance or no chance, star dust or regular dust. It doesn't matter.I have my mission and my purpose, and they are higher than anything you've attempted to touch upon so far. You can't even come up with a purpose you would like to be real that is better than realistic things like love, peace, balance and enlightenment. I'm still listening, though. You never know when or where you can learn something. Anytime you feel like asking different questions, I'll provide different answers. If you continue to ask the same thing over and over, I have no choice but to give you the same answer.Edited by Stile, : I can't counts teh numbers.

I don't claim that is the ultimate reason the universe exists. I told you already, I don't know why the universe exists. Yes, they do give plenty of humanity a reason to live. As to a meaning for existence of the universe, I've already told you I'm not sure. Maybe, maybe not. You certainly haven't given a reason why it would be impossible for them to be such.They're also all still "higher" than any reasons or meanings you have proposed as of yet (realistic or imaginary or hoped-for). If you can think of any "higher" reason, please share it with me, I am very curious.I'm not claiming I have any ultimate reason for the universe. I'm simply claiming that love, peace, balance and enlightenment are some rather not-too-shabby, actually existing, meanings for life in this universe.I am also claiming that they are "higher" than any purpose you've provided so far in this thread. You mentioned an afterlife. But wouldn't love, peace, balance and enlightenment be a part of this afterlife you propose? If so, why bother waiting for "the afterlife" before pursuing these goals? Isn't that what's going to be pursued once you get there anyway?If the afterlife is going to be without love, without peace, without balance, and without enlightenment... is it really worth pursuing at all?If you can imagine, or think of anything that would be "higher", please share it with me, I'm very curious.If you cannot... why is this not good enough? What, exactly, are you looking for if you can't even imagine anything better?

That's right, you don't know what the purpose of the universe is. Me neither. This is what I don't understand. Reality contains love, peace, balance and enlightment. Do you think that love, peace, balance and enlightenment are bleak, cold and irrelevant? Where are you getting your information on the Universe? I'm very interested. Regardless of such, it is irrelevant. Love, peace, balance and enlightenment are real. They exist. Regardless of how the universe came to be, why the universe came to be, why we came to be... the fact remains that these things exist.If you choose to ignore their existance. Then I certainly can understand why you think things are so bleak and cold. However, that is a problem you have with reality. Not purpose. Absolutely wrong.Why do assert that "where we come from" has anything to do with "our purpose"? I don't see the connection. I don't see why the purpose of our creation (whatever it is, if it even exists) MUST be "higher" than the purpose we find within our reality.A bird comes from an egg.
Are you saying that a birds purpose is to be an egg?
Then I assure you that even tiny (and insignificant by your own words...) birds have risen above and beyond the "so powerful" purpose of where they came from.I created a paperweight once. It was a rock. I drew a happy face on it for my own amusement. I created it to be a paperweight, and it served it's purpose. Very well, actually (I like open windows). My nephew came over, he took it off my desk and played with it for a few minutes. I couldn't believe the joy and amusement he got from it. I joined him... glued some hair on it, made up a story-line and we played with the little paperweight guy all afternoon. Imagine that, an inanimate stone overcoming it's own created purpose to serve an even larger one... certainly a "higher" one.And you come equipped with an imagination of your own control.I hope you do better than the rock.Again, we're left with the viable, existing, not-too-shabby meanings of love, peace, balance and enlightenment.You still cannot even conceive of a possibly-greater alternative purpose.What more do you want?Let's step back for a second. Let's just say that the universe was created, 100%, so that love was the ultimate purpose. Let's just say that's true.Wouldn't it be better if we figured that out for ourselves rather than being told and instructed by someone? Wouldn't it be even more meaningful that way?

The story wasn't about Hedonism. It was about showing how a perscribed purpose at creation is not necessarily a "higher" purpose at all. Who cares if it's discernible or not? What if it was obvious, and easily explained? What if our reason for being here was the simple sick pleasure of some being who wanted to watch suffering? There's certainly plenty of that around in this world. Does that mean you should start causing suffering because that's obviously our 'purpose'? Sounds a bit childish...Or let's say the world was created by some cruel being so that evil would reign supreme. In some parts of the world... this is very true. Would that mean being evil is our "higher" purpose? Of course not.It's ridiculous to think that just because some purpose was set, or not set, for something (including us or the Universe, or a rock) then that's the "higher" purpose of that thing.It is trivially shown to be an immature viewpoint.Like Rahvin was saying... "purpose" and "meaning" are subjective words. It's almost impossible for them to have an objective standard, and it's incredibly immature to think that any particular view at any particular time is actually "the higher" one.Some facts from this thread:1. We don't know the purpose of this Universe (or even if there is one).
2. I've provided you with a not-too-shabby, based-in-reality purpose and meaning (love, peace, balance and enlightenment).
3. You can't even imagine, think of or propose anything that would be "higher" than that.
4. I've shown you exactly why any originally perscribed (or absent) purpose is immature to recognize anyway.I'm sorry Agobot, but if you're still whining about not having any purpose or meaning in your life, there's only one person to blame.The life you have is yours to live by your decisions. This world is not easy, simple or full of quick-answers. Yes, it certainly can be scary to think that one day you might not exist, and no one will remember you, and your life will be forgotten. But you can do something about it, while you're here. You can decide to do what you can with the tools available to you. Or you can decide to give up. If there is an afterlife, or someone judging this life... which do you think they'ed prefer you to choose? If you were judging your life... which do you think you'd prefer you to choose?If you want to roll over and whine about how bleak and cold things are for you, that's your decision. But your lies about how things are cold and bleak for everyone, or about how everything is meaningless or purposeless are easily shown false.Edited by Stile, : Wasn't quite finished

Claiming that I can't tell Agobot his purpose? Yes, for sure. It's something we must all do for ourselves (I think, anyway).My purpose (I call it my "secret of life", actually) are two simple words: Get Better.
It's kinda broad and vague, but, well, I've discovered that I'm a kinda broad and vague person Like you said, it works for me, fits me, and likely isn't right or good for most everyone else.But it does do certain things for me. It makes me a better person. It gives me purpose and meaning. It makes me feel fulfilled and gives me a sense of passion and ambition. I have yet to hear of anything from anyone that (to me) makes more sense, could produce better results, or is more "me". I can't even imagine anything more important, better, or more attractive (to me). Even if it turns out that there is some 'purpose to the Universe' or whatever, if it doesn't align with my purpose.. then it's wrong about me. Perhaps I'm not "supposed" to be getting better. It doesn't matter, it's who I am, and it's what I do.It's not so much that I picked it and molded my life around it.
It's more like I discovered it, just sort of describing something that I've had in my life all along anyway. Once I did understand that it was "me", though... it's certainly been a constant source of self-confidence, freedom and strength. Sort of a "know thyself" type of thing.

I fully understand this. What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't make any difference. And I've shown you that even if something like this did exist. Even if something like this ever was discovered. Or perhaps it can never be discovered because it's so vast... It doesn't matter. It doesn't make it "higher", and it doesn't make it supreme, or even worth acknowledging in any way. The idea that it should be acknowledged just because it "came first" or because some creator-being "intended it for all" is extremely immature.Why are you so head-strong on uncovering something that isn't worth acknowledging even if it did exist?Searching for some initial-conditions purpose for life and the Universe as if it actually mattered is like making sure you can solve the Rubik's Cube before you play baseball with some friends.It may be interesting, but it's totally unrelated and seriously doesn't matter.

Let's try another angle.How will you recognize this "higher", "supreme", "grand", "undescribably huge" mission/purpose/meaning?Is it grand because it's first?
-that doesn't make sense. That's only a childish response. Why would it be impossible for a later-discovered purpose to be better?Is it grand because it's (possibly) from a creator?
-again, doesn't make sense. Just because some creator lays out a purpose doesn't necessarily make that purpose grand or even good. Why would it be impossible for a later-discovered purpose to be better?Is it grand because it's moral and honourable?
-this makes sense to me. But how do you recognize it?
Wouldn't it make sense that the grand moral and honourable purpose of the universe is the most moral and honourable thing we can think of in our wildest dreams?But... if you can't think of anything "higher" than love, peace, balance and enlightenment in any of your wildest dreams (a thing you haven't been able to do throughout this thread)... wouldn't that make those things the exact grand purpose you're looking for?Or maybe I have it wrong all together. What makes it grand? How will you recognize the purpose of the universe when you hear about it?

Yes, or maybe "the objective purpose/meaning to the universe", even.I don't understand why anyone would think that something objective would be "higher" in any regard.Objectivity is limited. Restrained by it's own objective properties. It doesn't make sense to me that something as powerful as "the meaning of life" would be contained like that. The meaning of life is so big that it shouldn't be held down by the mundane limits of objectivity....or something like that.

Okay. I can accept this as true. What? Where did all this come from?1. You just stated that we may not recognize the purpose of the Universe even if we see it. From that you conclude that it is necessarily so that this purpose does not exist?...that's some pretty bad logic.2. You do not know your own purpose, you automatically assume that a puddle of water has a "low" purpose. You assume that "a purpose to the Universe" is, for some reason, worthy of acknowledgement in the first place. And then you jump to the conclusion that all this adds up to something that must be extremely important in some negative sense of overall personal worth....it's difficult to pick out anything rational at all.3. You seem to assume that if we are here for no reason at all, then it is impossible for us to gain a reason for ourselves. Even after I've repeatedly shown this stance to be false, and provided some reasons that are better than anything you can possibly imagine (what more could you hope for!). If I need a mindset that is illogical, irrational, and comes with a pitiful imagination to understand these ideas... I'm not sure if those ideas are worth pursuing.