GOD IS DEAD

This is where the universe and life start to not make sense and that's ok. Otherwise, if everything made sense to our puny human minds, that would probably mean that there is a God that had made everything with meaning and logic. This however doesn't change the fact that we are a meaningless by-product of the star-dust that came of the Big Bang.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Again, can you show this? Where is this link between "God's existance" and "anything's signifigance or importance"? I don't understand why you think the two are linked. Why is that? You keep saying things, yet you give no reason for anyone to agree with you. Why can't a turtle have a great purpose in life beyond it's personal one? Why can't that purpose be something you don't understand? Why can't all that be a part of reality without God?Why do think something has to have an affect that you acknowledge as "great" in order for it to actually be a significant aspect of the universe? I assure you, you're not that important. Why do you think that "what something is made from" has any bearing on it's purpose? That doesn't make sense to me, I don't understand what you're trying to say. Why are you so hung-up on material things?Purpose and meaning are extremely non-material. They are not so limited by physical qualifications.

I am thinking beyond the personal level(the Universe) and you seem so hung on the notion that you have a very special purpose. I am not interseted, whatever it may be. I am not interseted in that very special purpose that you think my turtle has in the Universe and that you claim that i don't know. Clearly, if there is no God, and we are made by chance off the stardust that came from the Big Bang, then that clearly means that we are here by chance, WITHOUT ANY MISSION OR PURPOSE.I will not further respond to your posts, as they become redundant.

So am I. The best thing either of us has come up with as a purpose for this Universe is "we don't know". If you have anything more interesting then that, I'm certainly very curious. I have no interest in imagination, though. However, let's look at some facts about this thread:1. You ask about a purpose for the Universe. Message 1
2. I say I don't know. Message 8
3. You say you want a "higher" purpose, and explain what you mean. Message 9
4. I show you how your proposed "higher" purpose is not very high and how certain realistic purposes are even higher. Message 11
5. You again ask about a purpose for the Universe. Message 18My question to you is:If a known-to-exist, reality-based purpose can put all the "higher" purposes you can imagine to shame... why is that not good enough? You can't even imagine something that might possibly be better. And this reality-based purpose has the added benefit that it's actually real and feasible to pursue. Why not give it a try? Why not stick with that at least until you are able to imagine something that actually is better? The only reason I keep saying that, is because you keep saying things like "if there is no GOD, we have no purpose". This is obviously untrue.
I am, however, interested in any special purpose you can come up with. I may adapt my own if it is indeed "higher" in any way. I'm not sure if your turtle has a very special purpose or not. Neither do I claim you don't know it. I certainly think it's possible your turtle has a purpose, and that it's possible you are unaware. That's what I said, anyway. I have a mission, and I have a purpose. My mission and purpose do not depend upon where I came from. God or no God, Big Bang or no Big Bang, chance or no chance, star dust or regular dust. It doesn't matter.I have my mission and my purpose, and they are higher than anything you've attempted to touch upon so far. You can't even come up with a purpose you would like to be real that is better than realistic things like love, peace, balance and enlightenment. I'm still listening, though. You never know when or where you can learn something. Anytime you feel like asking different questions, I'll provide different answers. If you continue to ask the same thing over and over, I have no choice but to give you the same answer.Edited by Stile, : I can't counts teh numbers.

Love comes and goes. It brings happiness and misery. If that gives you a reason and meaning to life, that's OK. As long as you don't claim that Love is the ultimate, fundamental reason why the universe and we humans exist.Peace - this gives humanity a reason to live, or a meaning to the existence of the universe?Balance - this gives humanity a reason to live, or a meaning to the existence of the universe?Enlightment - this gives humanity a reason to live, or a meaning to the existence of the universe?Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

I don't claim that is the ultimate reason the universe exists. I told you already, I don't know why the universe exists. Yes, they do give plenty of humanity a reason to live. As to a meaning for existence of the universe, I've already told you I'm not sure. Maybe, maybe not. You certainly haven't given a reason why it would be impossible for them to be such.They're also all still "higher" than any reasons or meanings you have proposed as of yet (realistic or imaginary or hoped-for). If you can think of any "higher" reason, please share it with me, I am very curious.I'm not claiming I have any ultimate reason for the universe. I'm simply claiming that love, peace, balance and enlightenment are some rather not-too-shabby, actually existing, meanings for life in this universe.I am also claiming that they are "higher" than any purpose you've provided so far in this thread. You mentioned an afterlife. But wouldn't love, peace, balance and enlightenment be a part of this afterlife you propose? If so, why bother waiting for "the afterlife" before pursuing these goals? Isn't that what's going to be pursued once you get there anyway?If the afterlife is going to be without love, without peace, without balance, and without enlightenment... is it really worth pursuing at all?If you can imagine, or think of anything that would be "higher", please share it with me, I'm very curious.If you cannot... why is this not good enough? What, exactly, are you looking for if you can't even imagine anything better?

I cannot propose any reason why the universe exists after the Big Bang or why Life exists except - by chance, with no meaning and no purpose. That's why I said in the OP that reality is a meaningless, bleak, cold and irrelevant nonsense. On the level of the Universe, our exisistence is such as well. On the personal level, there are many things that could give meaning and charm to life. But with view to how life originates and how life ends(of dust) - we are still faced with this meaningless, bleak, cold and irrelevant nonsense that we call existence. There is no fundamental purpose or meaning of life in the universe. We are not needed and we are not necessary for anything out there - what a waste! Something so great and magnificient as life is also something so insignificant and meaningless in a chain of random events after the Big Bang.Next if you ask:what are we - we are the result of a random event.Why are we - because the random event chose it to be so.The sad part is that we are the only species on Earth that has an inquisite mind. Ironically, our inquision so far leads us to this dismal discovery.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

The word "meaning" itself implies subjectivity. The Universe has only what "meaning" we subjectively choose to ascribe to it, just as with our own individual lives. There is nothing suggesting that the Universe has any objective "purpose" of any sort, and likewise with our own existence.A creator deity could certainly have created the Universe for its own "purpose," but there is no evidence of such a thing. And insisting that God must exist else the Universe have no meaning is the very definition of an Appeal to Consequence fallacy on top of a Non Sequitur - a personally unpleasant result has no bearing on the veracity of an argument, and God/No God does not necessarily have any bearing on whether the Universe has "meaning" or not.Certainly I find meaning and purpose in my own life without presupposing the existence of a deity. I highly value learning and acquiring knowledge for its own sake, as well as improving the standards of living for myself and my loved ones as well as anyone else I'm able to help. I find these to be more than adequate answers to the questions "what is the meaning of my life" and "what is my purpose in life."I don't require the very existence of the Universe to have any purpose or meaning, of course (since such a thing is not necessary for the Universe to exist), so the prospect of the Universe in fact not having any objective meaning (I cringe at the oxymoron "objective meaning")or purpose doesn't really bother me.

That's right, you don't know what the purpose of the universe is. Me neither. This is what I don't understand. Reality contains love, peace, balance and enlightment. Do you think that love, peace, balance and enlightenment are bleak, cold and irrelevant? Where are you getting your information on the Universe? I'm very interested. Regardless of such, it is irrelevant. Love, peace, balance and enlightenment are real. They exist. Regardless of how the universe came to be, why the universe came to be, why we came to be... the fact remains that these things exist.If you choose to ignore their existance. Then I certainly can understand why you think things are so bleak and cold. However, that is a problem you have with reality. Not purpose. Absolutely wrong.Why do assert that "where we come from" has anything to do with "our purpose"? I don't see the connection. I don't see why the purpose of our creation (whatever it is, if it even exists) MUST be "higher" than the purpose we find within our reality.A bird comes from an egg.
Are you saying that a birds purpose is to be an egg?
Then I assure you that even tiny (and insignificant by your own words...) birds have risen above and beyond the "so powerful" purpose of where they came from.I created a paperweight once. It was a rock. I drew a happy face on it for my own amusement. I created it to be a paperweight, and it served it's purpose. Very well, actually (I like open windows). My nephew came over, he took it off my desk and played with it for a few minutes. I couldn't believe the joy and amusement he got from it. I joined him... glued some hair on it, made up a story-line and we played with the little paperweight guy all afternoon. Imagine that, an inanimate stone overcoming it's own created purpose to serve an even larger one... certainly a "higher" one.And you come equipped with an imagination of your own control.I hope you do better than the rock.Again, we're left with the viable, existing, not-too-shabby meanings of love, peace, balance and enlightenment.You still cannot even conceive of a possibly-greater alternative purpose.What more do you want?Let's step back for a second. Let's just say that the universe was created, 100%, so that love was the ultimate purpose. Let's just say that's true.Wouldn't it be better if we figured that out for ourselves rather than being told and instructed by someone? Wouldn't it be even more meaningful that way?

No, it wouldn't be better. As we all know, work must be avoided at all costs. Which is why religion is so great. So many questions answered with a few basic phrases. Unfortunately, for the majority of religious people out there (and especially so as regards the fundies), religion truly is the opiate of the masses. Its a way to avoid the real work of life. Granted, I'm sure there are atheists who do this too, but they'll have a different excuse (perhaps nihilism!). If you have to figure life out for yourself, it's not worth it. Much better to have some old dude in the sky tell you.By the way, great story about the rock and your nephew.

Your story is a true representation of Hedonism. You don't have to prove that Hedonism exists, nobody will argue. It's not even the topic here - the topic is that we are a random event in random universe and we(our lives) have no purpose and no meaning to this same universe. This is especially true in light of Nietzsche's saying "God is dead". While I can live with that, it doesn't give me much pleasure that we are here for no reason and everything - the whole universe(including us) exist for no reason discernible by a human mind. Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

Avoid the real work of life? Did you find out the reason why you are here? Ohhh you figured out life? - whaaat a bold and blanket statement. Why don't you enighten us why we are here? Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

How is that not a distress that our meaningful and glorious existence is the creation of randomness plus a cloud of dust? Do we atheists have to be that cold as to avoid all emotions at all costs? Is that the way to deal with the crisis of the missing human discernable purpose of the universe? (EDIT: Probably yes)Edited by Agobot, : No reason given.

What are you smoking? They must have some really good weed in Bulgaria, because I don't recall saying that I have found my purpose in life, never mind anyone else's. I do recall stating that religion is a cop-out for the majority of religious people.Instead of answering my criticism with some false demagoguery how about taking on the criticism?

There is no old dude in the sky, so teach us how to figure life out(since you claim it's better to figure life out on our own).