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Author Topic:   the principles of world view
Modulous
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Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 11 of 85 (495534)
01-23-2009 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by homunculus
01-22-2009 2:18 AM


Imperfect and ridiculous
I have something to consider. Lets pretend for a moment that creation and evolution are subjective to the individual. Now, take a look at the principles or the world views of each. In the realm of creation, everything being created, designed and sanctified by the most high, we learn from the bible that everything is "beautifully and wonderfully made" and that the lord highly values and ponders on his creation and humans. So people have high value, priceless worth and dubbed in the absolute love and wonder of god.
Depends on our view. If we believe that an entity should be measured by its words (where applicable), then yes, the Lord God highly values humans. If we believe that an entity should be measured by its deeds, the Lord God clearly has a less than stellar opinion of humanity.
In the realm of evolution, everything is prostrated to, nothing! Nothing created everything (big bang). Nothing created life (abiogenesis). Nothing designates purpose, reason, design and meaning. and human beings have absolutely no value at all. We are just a branch off the monkey block. Human life demands no respect and no consideration. I suppose you could say that the earth is God (enviro-mentally applied). Or say that man is God. Because there is nothing to decide what has worth and what doesn't.
Well, let's not get confused over evolution/big bang and all that. Let us simply say that according to the physicalism metaphysics and the conclusions of science based on methological naturalism...
A point of interest, naturalism or physicalism does not claim things came 'from nothing' - indeed that would seem to be a ludicrous position. However, it may seem that way in comparison to the specific theological position you mentioned as contrast. In fact, some things are supposed to be self-existing other things are the result of the established laws of nature (Thermodynamics and other chemistry and physics). Pretty much the same view as the God view in this regard.
But let's talk about value. How much is a car worth? What is the value of a car? It is whatever the market will pay for it. What is the value of a human? It is whatever the market will pay for it. Just because one buyer no longer exists (God) doesn't mean there aren't other buyers. The only value a human has is dependent on the question 'To whom?'. Obviously to inanimate objects the question is meaningless but to other humans? To organisms that depend on them? It might be 'nothing' through 'lunch' all the way to 'everything'.
Finally, I have always said that nature of humans is a self destructive one (see 'the fall of man' in genesis). the way of man (evolution) is total selfishness. What feels good, do it. No need to regard anyone else, they just complicate life and get in the way of our desires. I suppose you could say we are our own gods. We don't answer to anyone
Humans are self destructive and yet humans and their domesticated animals currently makes up the majority of biomass on the planet. That doesn't seem to pan out.
Do you honestly think there is no need to regard anyone else in a world without God? If I killed my neighbour's husband so I can have my wicked way with her, would I be punished? Very likely - there are very real authorities who enforce social desires (I don't want to be murdered or my SO raped so I am happy to work to pay for the enforcement of a social contract of mutual protection). Other animals have crime and punishment for breaking certain rules (exile, or exclusion from the mutual protection of others is a common punishment as is violence) is it because they are God fearing? Why should it be?
Evolution has ensured that I am basically pretty good at making sure my genes get passed on. Raping people is a fairly good strategy for this, but I also have genes for (warning: grotesque oversimplification) social awareness and the ability to comprehend consequences. If I rape I am likely to be placed in a building surrounded by only other violent men with sexual crimes under their belt. Not much chance of passing on my genes there, I dare say I wouldn't enjoy it much. So I don't rape.
Remove those consequence, and we see rape and murder increase dramatically. God still exists or doesn't. The belief in God doesn't change. But find a place which has undergone a collapse of law (where consequences for rape are not meted out for example) and you will find rape/murder/theft all over the place, from atheists, Christians, Muslims and just about anyone else. Just look at war zones and so called 'failed states', or during certain natural disasters where the police are too busy helping people who are in immediate danger, rather than prosecuting those that may or may not, after significant investigation be able to be charged for a crime.
I seem to remember an anonymous survey that suggested that most men would commit a rape if they knew they could get away with it (ie not face a social penalty). We know that men will kill if they can get away with it (see: war). Does this conflict with the materialist/physicalist metaphysics?
In conclusion, I would say that it all comes down to how we decide what principle to eat from. what tree to eat from, the tree of evolution, and become our own god. But the tree of creation, and humble yourself to God. These world views govern morality and cultural application in social economics.
Well sure - what we believe is, as far as anything can be - our choice. We make the decision based on our own criteria. In order to make a decent decision, its always a good idea to try and figure out exactly what each position is.
On the one hand, we are answerable to each other. We screw someone over, we might get away with it. Society might decide to punish us. We must weigh up the pros and cons of being naughty and make a decision based on that. We might be forced by other humans to live in a small building for a long time, or they might even execute us or demand we do a certain amount of compensatory work (ie., get fined). Does the risk of this punishment deter us or not? Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. In order to protect ourselves from getting screwed over we should invest what we can in improving methods of catching and proving the misdeeds of others.
In the Christian God's eye view - God will sort out punishment so it doesn't really matter whether we catch a criminal. It doesn't really matter if they go to prison. What's 25 years in prison compared with eternity of hell fire. And if God doesn't think they should be punished, what right do we have to punish them? And we had better not be naughty because nobody escapes this justice. So we don't have to be moral, we just have to be obedient in deed and thought. Though we might be able to ask for forgiveness if we mess up, as long as we mean it, in which case there is no punishment, indeed there is glorious reward.
We get to choose which one we want to live by here on earth. Generally speaking, we seem to live by the former while pretending to live by the latter. That's humans for you - imperfect and ridiculous.
Incidentally we can frame this anyway we want:
Christianity: Love love, beauty, freedom.
Materialism: Cruel, harsh, cold, constraining.
or
Christianity: Cruel, capricious, amoral, no true freedom at all, delusional
Materialism: Sometimes beautiful, sometimes cruel, just...you know...life, reality.
But it doesn't change the way things are. You are entitled, by our current social contract (assuming you live in a 'free' society) to choose to believe what you want for whatever reasons you choose. If you choose to believe in Christianity because you believe it makes you feel better to believe you live in a world filled with the love of a supreme father figure who will punish all those horrible people and reward all the good ones without fail...fill your boots as we say here in Britain.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by homunculus, posted 01-22-2009 2:18 AM homunculus has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Annafan, posted 01-23-2009 8:23 AM Modulous has not replied

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