God's chosen and predestination.

The Bible is pretty clear; "God so loves the world..."Now, the idea He only really loves and died for the elect is not a new one, and is one of the 5 points of hyper-Reformed theology, which is very good in some respects, but imo, is not entirely accurate on that point.It's true there are verses like "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated."But John 3:16 is true too, in God so loved the world, and Jesus exhibited love even for sinners that were not going to follow Him. He healed 10 lepers, but only one came back to give thanks, for example. Many are "called", but few "chosen."So He holds out His invitation and love to the many "called" and not just the "chosen."But here is te dilemna and something both true and for many hard to understand and some consider it heretical. Hell is real, let me preface my comments with that.But God is not limited by time. The Bible says "He will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth"; that He "works all things after the good pleasure of His will", etc,...Let's think of the universe according the modern perspective of space-time. In that perspective, the earth is not just a sphere in the point of time, but is a streak in space-time.A person then exists from God's perspective, as in the past, present, and future, as someone along a path.We assume that once the past goes by, it's gone because it is from our perspective, but in reality, the past is still there from God's perspective. We see this idea in relativity. If a photon were sentient, it would not experience time at all, but what we call time would just be present spaces spread out, sort of folds in space if you would. So from that perspective, the past, present, and future is all space and all present.If that's the perspective of the photon, then it is a real perspective, and regardless, God is not limited by time since He created it.He makes all things new, right?So it is true that God elects and uses extraordinary circumstances to save the elect in a certain time-line and that the rest are not saved because even when presented with the opportunity, for whatever reason, they are not ready to accept as the elect are.Those that reject the truth do indeed go to hell and from that point on, it appears to be forever and ever.But let's back up a minute. From God's perspective, a person is still living as well in what we call the past. Think of it like a movie.God can still intervene in the past, which would remove part of the future from that point on, including the present hell of the man consigned there, and thus "make all things new" and give someone a new start, effectively erasing part of the time-line, and electing someone.This is a mystery I hesitate to discuss on an on-line forum, but this is how it works.This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 11:28 AM

Gordag, there are parts of the Bible that indicate the time-line idea is correct.For example, Paul says we are His body "that fills all in all" in Ephesians, and does so after talking about predestination, working all things after the good pleasure of His will, and that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.You have to wonder what he was referring to. Paul was referring to messages and revelations he had already preached, one of them I believe is this one I mention here.He says we, his people, are His body that fills "all in all." Well, all in all is everything in everything, and that has to include history as well. How is that going to be accomplished if most people are burning in hell? His people can only fill hell, if something like what I am saying is true.Spend some time thinking about it. It's a heavy concept, but once you understand it, much of the scriptures in this area, and the seeming contradictions you reference in the OP, clear up. He makes all things new. All things to my mind is "all things" and that has to include history.If he be lifted up, he will draw "all men" to himself.There's more Bible references. It is in there. You just to have to realize what the writer is talking about in many of these passages people tend to gloss over.Keep in mind what I am writing is fully consistent with a predetermined ending for each person, and in this time-line, either heaven or hell, but in the End, who is a Person not just an event, the predetermined position is an elected position in Christ since He fills all in all through His body. Since Paul says His body, the people of God, fill all in all, all souls of people must become part of Christ somehow.This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 12:22 PM

"All" I think means exactly that, everything.The "all in all" is everything in everything, absolute unity with God inside and out, for the entire creation. It's a much more glorious inheritance than we realize.