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Author Topic:   God's chosen and predestination.
Glordag2
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 18 (230878)
08-08-2005 6:57 AM


I was having a religious discussion with my friend (a devout Christian that was formerly Baptist and is now more Episcipalean(sp?)...I, myself, am an agnostic for those that don't remember), and for once we found a couple of topics that we can agree on. I found them both very interesting, and it brought up a couple of questions in my mind about the doctrines that are taught in churches and other religious arenas today.
For now I won't post the actual verses cited, as I don't remember which ones they were exactly and I don't have them with me.
First, we meddled around with the idea of predestination. My friend originally thought this idea to be ludacris, but after reading the Bible more thoroughly, has come to accept it as God's truth. This is based off of the numerous references to God's will, path, and whatever other words that seem to indicate a plan you might come up with. I would assume the main problem with this for most Christians would revolve around the very nature of humanity and our ability to sin and choose whether to follow God/Christ or not. This is understandable, and brought us into our next point.
There are numerous references to the "chosen people" in the Bible and even God's plan for offspring in a couple of places. The passages seem to be worded as to indicate that God preselects who will go to heaven and who will not. Possessives like "my people" or "his people" or what-have-you seem to support this. We came up with an idea that perhaps removes some of the loopholes or errancies within the Bible. What if God only concerned himself with his chosen? What if he didn't have to love, care for, etc. those of which are not his chosen? This, in a way, leaves room for both free will and predestination. In addition, it kind of helps answer the questions revolving around "how could God be caring if...?". Maybe the ones that aren't chosen by God are chosen by another god from another religion? Could it be possible to accomodate all religions into one global religion using the same principles in others? What about evolution? This makes for an interesting scenerio: maybe God's chosen were created but others evolved or were created by another deity? I don't give any of this a grain of salt, but it just seems like something interesting that perhaps hasn't been explored all that much.
Any and all feedback is appreciated. I don't really believe any of this, but I thought it was pretty interesting. Citing verses and passages is recommended, and I'll try and do the same if asked (it could take a few days, though.)
This message has been edited by Glordag2, 08-08-2005 08:18 AM
This message has been edited by Glordag2, 08-08-2005 08:20 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminBrian, posted 08-08-2005 7:42 AM Glordag2 has replied
 Message 5 by randman, posted 08-08-2005 11:25 AM Glordag2 has replied
 Message 6 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 11:42 AM Glordag2 has replied

  
AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 18 (230888)
08-08-2005 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Glordag2
08-08-2005 6:57 AM


Focus
Hi Glordag,
Could you perhaps focus the topic in a little, there appears to be too many points for an opening post (check out the number of question marks!)?
Also, it looks as if there are actually two topics here:
1. Predestination.
2. The Nature of Hell.
Perhaps you would like to merge them, but I can see difficulties with having both these topics in the one thread.
You are welcome to open separate threads if you wish.
But, try honing it down a little, there are too many questions in the OP, and this would certainly lead to many off-topic posts.
AdminBrian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 6:57 AM Glordag2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 8:19 AM AdminBrian has not replied

  
Glordag2
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 18 (230898)
08-08-2005 8:19 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminBrian
08-08-2005 7:42 AM


Re: Focus
I took out the bit about hell. I figured since the chosen bit was somewhat related to predestination I should/could keep that in there. Let me know if you need it narrowed down any more.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminBrian
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 18 (230929)
08-08-2005 10:11 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 5 of 18 (230952)
08-08-2005 11:25 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Glordag2
08-08-2005 6:57 AM


that's not the answer
The Bible is pretty clear; "God so loves the world..."
Now, the idea He only really loves and died for the elect is not a new one, and is one of the 5 points of hyper-Reformed theology, which is very good in some respects, but imo, is not entirely accurate on that point.
It's true there are verses like "Jacob have I loved and Esau have I hated."
But John 3:16 is true too, in God so loved the world, and Jesus exhibited love even for sinners that were not going to follow Him. He healed 10 lepers, but only one came back to give thanks, for example. Many are "called", but few "chosen."
So He holds out His invitation and love to the many "called" and not just the "chosen."
But here is te dilemna and something both true and for many hard to understand and some consider it heretical. Hell is real, let me preface my comments with that.
But God is not limited by time. The Bible says "He will have all men to be saved and come into the knowledge of the truth"; that He "works all things after the good pleasure of His will", etc,...
Let's think of the universe according the modern perspective of space-time. In that perspective, the earth is not just a sphere in the point of time, but is a streak in space-time.
A person then exists from God's perspective, as in the past, present, and future, as someone along a path.
We assume that once the past goes by, it's gone because it is from our perspective, but in reality, the past is still there from God's perspective. We see this idea in relativity. If a photon were sentient, it would not experience time at all, but what we call time would just be present spaces spread out, sort of folds in space if you would. So from that perspective, the past, present, and future is all space and all present.
If that's the perspective of the photon, then it is a real perspective, and regardless, God is not limited by time since He created it.
He makes all things new, right?
So it is true that God elects and uses extraordinary circumstances to save the elect in a certain time-line and that the rest are not saved because even when presented with the opportunity, for whatever reason, they are not ready to accept as the elect are.
Those that reject the truth do indeed go to hell and from that point on, it appears to be forever and ever.
But let's back up a minute. From God's perspective, a person is still living as well in what we call the past. Think of it like a movie.
God can still intervene in the past, which would remove part of the future from that point on, including the present hell of the man consigned there, and thus "make all things new" and give someone a new start, effectively erasing part of the time-line, and electing someone.
This is a mystery I hesitate to discuss on an on-line forum, but this is how it works.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 11:28 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 6:57 AM Glordag2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 11:55 AM randman has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 6 of 18 (230958)
08-08-2005 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Glordag2
08-08-2005 6:57 AM


Interesting question - it's one that's puzzled me for a way. If the christian Godhead is all powerful, he must therefore know the outcome every event from the start to end of time - he already knows who will pick him and who will not. That to me raises another question - what the point of the rest of us?
It seems to be that our purpose (the disbelievers) is to avoid a planet fall of believers - because if everyone believes, who is going to question faith? and if no-one questions is that faith?
As far as I can see the God you describe (and the one in the bible) creates the rest of us as props in play. A play where he knows all of the props will be burnt at the end. Think about it, the christian god creates all of us knowing the outcome of our existance. Surely far better for most of us to have never existed.
Therefore the christian God creates most of us to burn in hell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 6:57 AM Glordag2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 11:58 AM CK has replied
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 08-08-2005 12:04 PM CK has replied

  
Glordag2
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 18 (230965)
08-08-2005 11:55 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by randman
08-08-2005 11:25 AM


Re: that's not the answer
Your points on John 3:16 make sense, and we actually discussed that, as well. What is described as "the world" in biblical terms isn't necessarily the world as we know it today. Those who wrote the Bible had a very different mindframe of "the world", and indeed, might have only meant it to be the world which they knew inside of their political or social boundries. Another idea is that loving "the world" doesn't necessarily mean loving each and every thing in it. This would be akin to somoene creating a work of art out of bad clay or paint. They might love their work, but hate the medium with which it was made.
Your timeline idea makes sense to a degree, but I certainly don't see any references to such a thing in the Bible. I think passages more likely suggest a predetermined ending of eiter heaven or hell (or something else entirely?) for each person.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by randman, posted 08-08-2005 11:25 AM randman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by randman, posted 08-08-2005 12:19 PM Glordag2 has replied

  
Glordag2
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 18 (230967)
08-08-2005 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by CK
08-08-2005 11:42 AM


Interesting. I suppose that is another viable alternative. I would much rather like to think that other religions could be incorporated into one, however (;. Or perhaps, in being props we have no souls capable of transcending the doors of heaven or hell. This could potentially open the door for reincarnation or some fate other than hell for us. So many strange places these thoughts can go.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 11:42 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 12:02 PM Glordag2 has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 9 of 18 (230968)
08-08-2005 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Glordag2
08-08-2005 11:58 AM


That's the other thing that bugs me - what bother giving souls to the damned?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 11:58 AM Glordag2 has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 18 (230969)
08-08-2005 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by CK
08-08-2005 11:42 AM


quote:
Therefore the christian God creates most of us to burn in hell.
Or maybe all of us. I suspect that God enjoys the look on the faces of the Christians and Muslims as they figure out they're ending up in Hell with the rest of us.
Oh! Was that blasphemous?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 11:42 AM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 12:10 PM Chiroptera has not replied
 Message 12 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 12:12 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Glordag2
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 18 (230974)
08-08-2005 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chiroptera
08-08-2005 12:04 PM


quote:
Oh! Was that blasphemous?
Not if you're correct (; .

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 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 08-08-2005 12:04 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 12 of 18 (230977)
08-08-2005 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Chiroptera
08-08-2005 12:04 PM


quote:
Hello, nice to see you all again.
As the more perceptive of you have probably realised by now - this is hell, and I am the Devil. Goodevening. You can call me Toby, if you like - we try and keep things informal down here, as well as infernal.
Now, you're all here for eternity, which I hardly need tell you is a sod of a long time, so you get to know everyone pretty well by the end, but for now I'll have to split you up into groups.
Are there any questions?
No, I'm afraid we don't have any toilets, if you'd read your bible you would have seen that it was damnation without relief. So, I'm afraid if you didn't go before you came then you're not going to enjoy yourself very much, but then, I believe that's the general idea.
Right, let's split you up then.
Can you all hear me?
CAN YOU HEAR ME AT THE RACK?
Off we go...
Murderers, over here. Looters and pillagers - over there please, thieves if you could join them, and BANKMANAGERS.
Fornicators, if you could step forward - My God there are a lot of you. Could I split you up into adulterers and the rest? Adulterers if you could just form a line in front of that small guillotine there.
AMERICANS, are you here? I'm sorry about this, apparently God had some fracas with your founding fathers and damned the entire race into perpetuity. He sends particular condolences to the Mormans who He realises put in a lot of work. The Iranians, I'm afraid, couldn't be with us - someone's been holding them in purgatory for the last nine months.
Sodomites, over there against the wall.
Atheists, over here please. You must be feeling a right bunch of charlies.
Christians, ah yes, I'm afraid the Jews were right.
Moonies, maniacs, marmite eaters, male models, masochists, mass murderers and masseurs, if you could take a pew at the back - with the Methodists that is.
Now, you're the lot who used to kill whales, is that right? Ah, yes, I must remember - I've got some strips to tear off you bastards later.
Everyone who saw Monty Pythons' "Life Of Brian", I'm afraid He can't take a joke after all.
Alright now, one final thing - we're trying to implement some sort of exchange scheme with the Lord God Almighty, or Cliff as we know him. Some of you will spend a decade in heaven and we're having some angels down here. Now, I hardly need tell you that you will be expected to behave in an exemplary manner, so, I hope you will do the exact opposite - tear off their wings, use their holoes for frisbee practice, that sort of thing.
Well, I have to go now, but Beelzebub here will show you the ropes
chains,
and electrodes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Chiroptera, posted 08-08-2005 12:04 PM Chiroptera has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 12:19 PM CK has replied

  
Glordag2
Inactive Member


Message 13 of 18 (230981)
08-08-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by CK
08-08-2005 12:12 PM


LOL! That was great. What is that from?
quote:
Everyone who saw Monty Pythons' "Life Of Brian", I'm afraid He can't take a joke after all.
I especially liked that one (:

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 12:12 PM CK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 15 by CK, posted 08-08-2005 12:23 PM Glordag2 has not replied

  
randman 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4899 days)
Posts: 6367
Joined: 05-26-2005


Message 14 of 18 (230982)
08-08-2005 12:19 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Glordag2
08-08-2005 11:55 AM


Re: that's not the answer
Gordag, there are parts of the Bible that indicate the time-line idea is correct.
For example, Paul says we are His body "that fills all in all" in Ephesians, and does so after talking about predestination, working all things after the good pleasure of His will, and that He wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.
You have to wonder what he was referring to. Paul was referring to messages and revelations he had already preached, one of them I believe is this one I mention here.
He says we, his people, are His body that fills "all in all." Well, all in all is everything in everything, and that has to include history as well. How is that going to be accomplished if most people are burning in hell? His people can only fill hell, if something like what I am saying is true.
Spend some time thinking about it. It's a heavy concept, but once you understand it, much of the scriptures in this area, and the seeming contradictions you reference in the OP, clear up. He makes all things new. All things to my mind is "all things" and that has to include history.
If he be lifted up, he will draw "all men" to himself.
There's more Bible references. It is in there. You just to have to realize what the writer is talking about in many of these passages people tend to gloss over.
Keep in mind what I am writing is fully consistent with a predetermined ending for each person, and in this time-line, either heaven or hell, but in the End, who is a Person not just an event, the predetermined position is an elected position in Christ since He fills all in all through His body. Since Paul says His body, the people of God, fill all in all, all souls of people must become part of Christ somehow.
This message has been edited by randman, 08-08-2005 12:22 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 11:55 AM Glordag2 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 12:36 PM randman has replied

  
CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 15 of 18 (230984)
08-08-2005 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by Glordag2
08-08-2005 12:19 PM


It's a sketch that Rowan Atkinson (Mr.Bean/Blackadder) used to do.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by Glordag2, posted 08-08-2005 12:19 PM Glordag2 has not replied

  
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