how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?

Hold on - you don't realise the massive massive hole in what you have just said?

If the truth about the Creator could only be found through the examination of the creation through science, then I could decieve with a lie about the creation via another communication other than science. If my intent was to hide the truth, I would create the concept of a holy book and try to make the people of the Earth believe that the creator has an intimate purpose for certain creatures in the creation. I would try to say that the Creator holds certain creatures in the creation accountable for their actions via an afterlife judgement.Then I would say that this creator was so loving that he assumed the form of the creature in the creation while still remaining the creator so he could bridge the gap and pay the price of accoutability for the creatures himself, just to make the creatures in the creation even more priceless to him. Meanwhile, the real Creator sits by idle and hopes that the truth of the Creator and the Creation become known to all through scientific discovery. And this science and discovery merely convienes that even if there was a creator to start the whole process, there is nothing in it for the creation exept to be recycled at the big crunch. So what's the point of decieving by Satan? There's no objective as in the type of spiritual warefare that the Bible speaks of.That doesn't make sense which is why having the Bible written by Satan is an interesting concept but it lacks logic from even Satan's perspective.If I were Satan, I'd try to destroy it, eradicate it, copy it with esential alterations, add to it, mimmick it, flood the market with many variations of it, re-invent it or discredit it. But to author it as it is would be insane even for Satan.

I started by saying that In the end, it is between each of us individually and God Himself.
IMHO, anyway. Using the old cliche that "Its not about religion. Its about relationship", I would ammend the topic starting title to state "How can any one relationship claim to be the absolute truth?"
The answer is that God Himself makes the claim. Yes, but belief in someone being true never regresses. Once you know someone and can trust them, you will never later deny the reality of that person. But Ohnhai, while it is certainly true that you knew about God, how can you ever have known Him and then later deny His reality? While I cannot judge you or know your heart, it appears as if you merely knew about God. He was never as real to you as the knowledge that you later gained. Ask yourself what it is that verifies knowledge. And science is only verifiable through human wisdom. Because I follow a person, not a religion. Sagan, Einstein, and Hawking, respectable though they are, have never impressed me as much as Jesus Christ. If I conclude as you have done, I will be talking a different talk. Until then, I stand for what I know. (Or what I believe that I know. Gotta watch that sneaky guy!) Jar, in order to answer your question, you must first tell me how many GODS that there are. Not what the encyclopedia lists, but what you know to be true. No, but I have talked to someone who says that He was there. Should I trust Him? And if so, let us enjoy the journey together. If you go another way, perhaps it is only because you seek another destination than I do. On a global scale, is each individual on the journey? I would say so. If so, does each individual journey forth with a destination in mind, or are we all content tobe alive and enjoying each day in the midst of our journey? Perhaps we will arrive together, if an arrival ever occurs. Perhaps, but are each of us not on a path? Does it not make sense to hope that the path that you take is, in fact, the right one?
The only other option is to dismiss the notion of right and wrong and just take the path anyway. If we are flying to the moon, there may well be 6.2 billion different paths that ultimately arrive there, but there is where we will end up. I will agree with you, Rock...each one of the 6.2 billion chooses the path that they set out on. If ultimate truth were discovered any other way, it would have had to find us. Lets go back to my "moon" analogy. Paraphrasing your last statement, "either no moon exists and all paths to it go nowhere, or all paths are truly on target and are "reflections" of the same thing...namely, the moon. In which case one moon exists and reflects itself upon us...(flip it) in which case one God exists and we all reflect Him... Good question, Scraff! Keep that one on file! Charles, you are being serious, are you not? If what you suggest IS true, it is time for us to act.
I say that we should pray for God to reveal the truth to us. Do you agree, or do you have a better plan?

Why on earth would I deny the reality of a person based on trust? I distrust many people but I don’t deny their reality? I don’t trust or distrust the god/s I simply don’t believe in their existence or relevance. But though I believe this deeply, I’m not gonna try and force you to drop your belief and follow mine. I don’t have the right to do that. I don’t claim it to be the one truth. I want the religions that do claim to be the only truth to make a solid verifiable claim with good solid empirical evidence in regard to that claim. That or acknowledge they just, just might be wrong. The old arguments, look within your soul or read the bible are not good enough.I don’t believe in the soul, as our minds are emergent properties of the brain, and the bible has no credibility other than it has been around for some time and has been used and abused by many people to support their claim. If people were serious about the bible being the word of god it would be mandatory to know Hebrew and Greek, the two languages of the bible and only the original text in it’s original language would be permitted to be studied as any translation is never 100% accurate, and if you slave your self to that translated text how can it be the 100% true word of God? No the bible is just a book written and re-written over time to suit the needs of the religion that adopts it. When I was younger I did know god was there, I had been shown all his wonders and all that but over time it became blatant that all this was a hollow shell created and supported by the belief structures around it. As a kid did you ever believe in Santa? If yes, do you still believe in Santa? If no, why did you stop believing in something you previously KNEW existed?Yes Science is verified through human wisdom, and shuns the concept of blind faith as a reason for believing anything of what it says. I accept the concepts that science says because I know there has been years and years of hard work producing experiment after experiment to create the empirical data that backs those claims up, if you have no hard evidence (empirical evidence) then you are not allowed to say some thing is proved (look at the recent cold fusion fiasco)How do I know? Because the evidence is published in peer reviewed journals. What does this mean? It means one a scientist believes he has discovered something he writes it all up and sends it out to other scientists who pour over his work, redoing his calculations and redoing his experiments, checking their validity and results. Once they are happy that it is indeed as he says they publish the paper. Does this make it ‘true’? well for now yes, but there is nothing stopping some cleaver clogs coming along and finding the chink in the armour and disproving the results, but he best have rock solid counter theory, unquestionable experimental practices and clear and un ambiguous results. This is why I tend to take scientific claim with far less incredulity then religious claims, and if the peer review system doesn’t convince me enough I can do the research and experiments for myself and verify the knowledge that way. The same can not be said for religion that prefers you believe what you are told rather than what can be proved to be true. Ah so it’s a cult of personality. Nice. When does Hail bop return? I doubt none of the scientists you mention would want you to follow them the way you follow Christ, so I guess that only fair. You talked to him? Wow. How? He answers? How? Let us know, enquiring minds need to know. Are you sure you not just talking to your self? As to your question, ‘hell NO’! I can point to the moon and say ‘behold the moon’ if you don’t believe me we can get in a rocket and go there, you can touch it even take bits of it to bring home. It’s incredibly hard to dismiss the existence of such a large lump of rock isn’t it? In return please point to god, prove to me he exists.As to Charles’ ‘Satan wrote the bible’ remark. How can any one who believes in the great deceiver not have the nagging question in their mind what if the Devil did write the bible? What if all I believe is the deception of the Morning Star? And If so where is the truth? but my guess is he’s ragging ya due to the laughable comments of LBThis message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-19-2005 06:58 AM

Even as a kid, I knew that Santa was make believe. Santa never felt real in a personal sense. I suppose that some kids are so deluded, however. Familiarity is based on trust. Humans were the only source of trust that I had until I got saved. God is a real personal presence for me now, however. How would I ever convince you of this fact? You presuppose that I am blissfully ignorant at best and delusional at worst. You have already declared, in effect, that you now believe only in modern empirical facts. Perhaps we should start by getting to know each other before even bringing higher faith into the equation. The keyword that I see in your statement is "relevance." You expect us to make a verifiable claim and yet you have dismissed the relevance beforehand. A no win situation. You seem to have already made up your mind, which is your freedom. That is your absolute right and current truth. My current truth is Jesus Christ, alive, in control, and tolerant of all of us.
Why should I deny that my truth encompasses all truth? I do not see your truth as relevant...sorry for my humanity.

quote:

---

Charles, you are being serious, are you not? If what you suggest IS true, it is time for us to act.
I say that we should pray for God to reveal the truth to us. Do you agree, or do you have a better plan?

---

Well of course it's not true - I was just posing a question to a believer.

Are you quite certain, then, that there is no supernatural realm of Spirit, or are you just saying that it has never been proven?

Welcome to the dilemma of religious debate.
There is no way I’m ever gonna get people who claim to know god personally and the such to ever truly state that while they 100% believe they are right, there is a chance, however small, that could be wrong. It like asking them to deny the existence of a child or parent, Its not gonna happen. As all they need to validate their beliefs to themselves is to believe their religion to be true, how can you ever argue against that? Proof? Who needs proof? I believe it so it must be true, god told me.I applaud those of faith who comprehend and understand the phrase but I could be wrong in regard to religion, however it rarely happens.For all I know the God/s could be out there looking down shaking their heads at me, despairing at my lack of vision. But as I believe they don’t exist, in that non-existence they have no relevance. If they existed they would have relevance. Antelopes and Jack Rabbits have a relevance to the ecosystem because they exist and interact with it. Jackalopes don’t exist and thus have no relevance to the ecosystem, despite featuring in many stories, web pages and now brilliant animation by Pixar.Would a non existent god have any relevance to the universe?

hehe,
Satan has no real power, he's just a liar. His power is in our weakness.
He's a deciever, and thats how he gets everything.Satan was an angel, the bible tells us that we will get to judge angels.

But thats not an accurate decription of the truth. The truth is the truth, and there is no deception about it. It does not lie because it is not a lie, but truth. you don't believe in it, because you think it is the truth, it just is. You don't believe in it with your mind, you know it in your heart, you feel it in your spirit, you relate to it, you ask it questions, it holds it's ground, it never lies, and it sets you free. It guides you in life, it consuls you. It shows you the truth when in doubt of the truth.The truth resides within you.

I am saying that I have see no indicators anywhere of spirits, goblins or ghosts.

Why?we were talking about how you could tell if a GOD was real and you had said and I responded, Can any decisions be made based on what a GOD says?Don't all GODs say they are real?Are their GODs that claim not to be a GOD? Is there anyway that any of those possibilities could be eliminated or confirmed?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Only to the satisfaction and belief of the individual. That is why I asked you to tell me how many were in your heart. The relevance of your answer, which you may keep to yourself, by the way, is a personal and awesome matter!

Fair enough. How about any sort of inner awareness akin to ESP? Awareness of Vibes? Attitudes? Anything beyond the ordinary logic of a natural world?Put another way, whenever you have done something naughty, which we all do, have you ever felt giddy about it? Or convicted? Or aware that somehow you were not yourself?This message has been edited by Phatboy, 01-19-2005 15:37 AM

quote:

---

How about any sort of inner awareness akin to ESP?

---

No

quote:

---

Awareness of Vibes? Attitudes?

---

Well of course...from picking up and processing social cues.

quote:

---

Anything beyond the ordinary logic of a natural world?

---

I don't think I understand the question but no.

quote:

---

Put another way, whenever you have done something naughty, which we all do, have you ever felt giddy about it?

---

Well I weigh it against my rational framework and see what that tells me.

quote:

---

Or convicted?

---

no.

quote:

---

Or aware that somehow you were not yourself?

---

no.This message has been edited by Charles Knight, 01-19-2005 17:49 AM