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Author Topic:   how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?
ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5188 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 1 of 302 (176342)
01-12-2005 7:12 PM


All those of a religious mind put your religious belief in a little box and step into a world without a god, any god or anything divine. Not for ever but just for a moment. just long enough to look at religion from the outside. Turn round in this new world and watch the religions bounce off one another each 100% sure they have the single irrefutable TRUTH.
As you circle round this seething bubbling mass of dogmatic idealisms peppered with the red hot anger and fear of fundamentalism you notice something else. It seems that while there are many distinct groups with many sub groups within them, each and every tiny group is denying the validity and fundamental truth of all the others. Even the ones closest to them in the theological huddle.
It’s as if cereal manufacturers started claiming their product is the only ‘real’ cereal and that all the other manufacturers are lying to you because what they offer isn’t really cereal. Anyone, with even a half once of sense will laugh and then dismiss the claims as absurd. Cereal is cereal it doesn’t matter what claims you make for one box it won’t stop the other boxes also being valid as cereal will it? It’s the same for religions. From outside of religion it’s plain to see that religions tend to put their beliefs in to little boxes and market them as ‘The One True Religion’ denying the validity and truth of all the others. As with the cereal analogy, just because a religion claims the others to be false and flat out wrong, this doesn’t actually mean they are. It doesn’t invalidate them as religions or their claim on ‘the truth’.
So if simply claiming you have the one un changing fundamental truth, simply because your doctrine says you do, doesn’t in any real sense invalidate another religion’s claim to the same,(no matter how much one claims the other to be false) then all religions have to bee seen as equally valid or equally false. In the end which one you take off the shelf has more to do with how it suits your tastes rather than an accurate claim to be the one true religion.
--Edit-- edited in responce to Admin Moderation --
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-13-2005 08:35 AM

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminJar, posted 01-12-2005 8:57 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 11:49 AM ohnhai has replied
 Message 6 by General Nazort, posted 01-13-2005 12:40 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 9 by wmscott, posted 01-13-2005 2:39 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 15 by jar, posted 01-13-2005 6:41 PM ohnhai has not replied
 Message 21 by riVeRraT, posted 01-14-2005 8:42 AM ohnhai has replied
 Message 34 by Brian, posted 01-14-2005 7:40 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 44 by Buzsaw, posted 01-15-2005 8:34 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 85 by Lizard Breath, posted 01-17-2005 10:14 AM ohnhai has replied
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 01-17-2005 6:35 PM ohnhai has replied
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 01-20-2005 8:41 AM ohnhai has replied

AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 302 (176373)
01-12-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 7:12 PM


Awfully long for an OP. Can you do anything to refine it and make it tighter, more directed?

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5188 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 3 of 302 (176489)
01-13-2005 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminJar
01-12-2005 8:57 PM


Puts down the hedge trimmer.......
OP has been well pruned and re-shaped. And now illustrates my thoughts in a far clearer manner (I hope) Again I guess it’s best suited for ‘Faith & Belief’ unless you feel it is better suited to another.

This message is a reply to:
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AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 302 (176519)
01-13-2005 10:21 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6898 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 5 of 302 (176533)
01-13-2005 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 7:12 PM


To the law and to the testimony, if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20
Then I would conclude that it is imperative to learn the word and what it actually means, not what you think it means, and not what you want it to mean. There is much of that going around.
For instance:
The soul that sins it shall die Ezekiel 18:20
vs
Immortal soul (not in the Bible)
and
God only has immortality
1 Timothy 6:13-l 6: .......the Kings of kings, and Lord of lords; who only hath immortality........
So you see, that is the problem with all those religions - meaning Christianity. They just happily go along with traditional beliefs, which is vanity.
Matthew 15:9 {But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.}
Mark 7:7 {Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.}
etc.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ohnhai, posted 01-12-2005 7:12 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by ohnhai, posted 01-13-2005 12:49 PM PecosGeorge has replied

General Nazort
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 302 (176550)
01-13-2005 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 7:12 PM


I agree, just because a religion says it has the truth and all others are wrong does not make it so.
But please don't compare religions to cereal manafacturers each claiming to have "real" cereal... that analogy simply doesn't work.

If you say there no absolutes, I ask you, are you absolutely sure?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ohnhai, posted 01-12-2005 7:12 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5188 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 7 of 302 (176553)
01-13-2005 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by PecosGeorge
01-13-2005 11:49 AM


Then I would conclude that it is imperative to learn the word and what it actually means,
Ah yes but whose word and whose truth? This is the point. What validates one religion’s truth over another’s. esspecialy when the only vlaid argument seems to be that that the texts used to form that religion tells that religion that those texts contain the only truth.
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-13-2005 12:56 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 11:49 AM PecosGeorge has replied

Replies to this message:
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ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5188 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 8 of 302 (176557)
01-13-2005 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by General Nazort
01-13-2005 12:40 PM


Sorry if my choice of analogy is weak (seemed ok to me) please let me know where you feel it falls down. Or suggest a more robust alternative.

This message is a reply to:
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wmscott
Member (Idle past 6273 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 9 of 302 (176578)
01-13-2005 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 7:12 PM


In their greed for money they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrications."
Dear Ohanhia;
I read your opening post with interest, I wrote something on the same subject in the last chapter in my book; "Solving the Mystery of the Biblical Flood", and explained how to solve the paradox you present.
This book was written to prove that the biblical flood happened and thus show that the Bible is historically accurate, confirming it as a trust worthy guide to live one's life by. However considering the fact that so many of mankind's problems have a religious cause due in large part to the multitude of conflicting religions in the world today, a little more specific information is needed to avoid wasting one's time and possibly even one's life on a course that may literally turn out to be a dead end. I also feel a responsibility to provide some guidelines which will hopefully prevent anyone from trying to use this book to gain support for things contrary to the word of God. Pointing out some basic Bible teachings will be helpful, since those who would gather followers after themselves never really follow the word of God, they always end up following the word of man.
Some basic guidance is certainly needed, for far too many people today the Bible is a mysterious book they are completely unacquainted with and as we discovered in finding the flood, many of the things people have been told the Bible teaches are actually contrary to the word of God. There is such a total disagreement over what the Bible teaches that one has a better chance of receiving sound legal advice in a shoe store, than receiving a biblically correct answer from a random Christian religion. Clearly one has to read the book for one self and discern whether the would be guides are even following God's word. All Christian religions claim to follow the Bible and most claim all their doctrines are based on scripture. But it doesn't take much effort to blow these paper boats right out of the water. Some Christian religions are so far removed from what the Bible really teaches that they are Christian in name only. Many have deviated so far from what Christians are supposed to be, that they have given Christianity itself a bad name. The history of some of these religions is a violent history written in blood. This turning away from the right course and following a path so evil that it brings reproach on all who would follow Christ, was foretold in the Bible. "In the past there were also false prophets among the people, just as you also will have false teachers among you. They will introduce their destructive views, disowning the very Master who redeemed them, and bringing swift destruction on their own heads. They will gain many adherents to their dissolute practices, through whom the way of truth will be brought into disrepute. In their greed for money they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrications." 2 Peter 2:1-3 (REB)
Looking around the world today at the conduct of many so called Christian religions and their followers, we see this scripture is certainly being fulfilled to the letter. From the hypocrisy and the immoral conduct of individual Christians to the evil acts of many major religions in shedding blood in wars they have condoned or sanctioned and sometimes even caused. From the immoral to the evil, many have done much to darken the name of Christ. Clearly one has to be extremely carefully about embracing a religion that seems to be following the Bible and looks righteous, but really may not be what it appears. "Such people are sham apostles, confidence tricksters masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder! Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light, so it is easy enough for his agents to masquerade as agents of good. But their fate will match their deeds." 2 Corinthians 11:13-15 (REB)
When you follow someone or join a group, you have also accepted part of the responsibility for their actions. If we don't approve of the group's actions and yet remain a member, we are still giving them our support and are partly to blame for anything they may do. So it is very important to know how to find out whether a religion is actually following the Bible or not. The quickest and easiest way to spot Christian religions that have obviously taken a wrong turn, is to look at their actions. Christ said we could judge a tree by its fruits. Looking at the historic actions and present day conduct of some religions, we see many things that are in clear contradiction with Christian principles. This simple test would eliminate most so called Christian religions from consideration.
To pick out the truth, or the one religion that actually follows the Bible, will take a more detailed investigation. To be true followers of Christ, a religion's teachings must be in harmony with the Bible. All Christian religions claim their teachings are based on the Bible, but a close look reveals blatant contradictions. The most common conflict with scripture is on the condition of the dead. The Bible states that the dead are unconscious, that death is a state of nonlife or nonexistence. "But for anyone who is counted among the living there is still hope: remember, a live dog is better than a dead lion. True the living know that they will die; but the dead know nothing." Ecclesiastes 9:4-5 (REB)
Basically God's word states that when you die, you die, your one hope is a resurrection from the dead. The idea that part of us lives on after death is not taught in the Bible, but was a part of ancient pagan religions and it is from this non-Biblical source that this belief came from. The Bible clearly states that the soul or life, of a person dies at that person's death. "Human beings and beasts share one and the same fate: death comes to both alike. They all draw the same breath. Man has no advantage over beast, for everything in futility. All go to the same place: all came from the dust, and to the dust all return." Ecclesiastes 3:19-20 (REB) "The Lord God formed a human being from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, so that he became a living creature." Genesis 2:7 (REB) "Dust your are, to dust you will return," Genesis 3:19 (REB) That is the meaning of the expression "from to dust to dust," the first man Adam has created from the dust of the earth and when we die we go back to the dust. Adam didn't exist before God created him, so when he returned to the "dust," he returned to his earlier state, nonexistence. According to the Bible righteous people who die, enter a state of nonexistence until they are later resurrected. Since they are not aware of anything while in this state, they are sometimes referred to as being asleep.
"Everyone was weeping and lamenting for her. He said, 'stop your weeping; she is not dead: she is asleep'; and they laughed at him, well knowing that she was dead." Luke 8:52-53 (REB) The young girl was sleeping in death until Jesus resurrected her, she was not experiencing anything nor had she gone anywhere. The Bible confirms this by the fact that Christ died for our sins and he described himself as the resurrection and the life. It is only because of his sacrifice that we have the hope of a resurrection. Those who have died will rest until Christ resurrects them to life. The apostle Peter preached that, "For it was not David who went up to heaven;" Acts 2:34 (REB) and the apostle Paul preached the same. "As for David, when he died and was gathered to his fathers, and suffered corruption; but the one whom God raised up did not suffer corruption." Acts 14:36-37 (REB) King David, a righteous man, did not go to heaven when he died, but is sleeping in death awaiting a resurrection. This is why 1 Corinthians 15:20 states: "But the truth is, Christ was raised to life-the firstfruits of the harvest of the dead." (REB) The firstfruits are first, Jesus Christ was the first one resurrected to heavenly life. No one was raised to heavenly life before Christ, he was first and it was only by his sacrifice that a resurrection to heaven is possible. Hence, none of the righteous people who died before Christ opened the way, went to heaven. All of these people and many others are awaiting a future resurrection on earth when the righteous and unrighteous are to be raised. The fact that many people, including all those who died before Christ, will receive a earthly resurrection makes sense when you consider the fact baptism and being born again with holy spirit is required of all those going to heaven. "Jesus answered, 'In very truth I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he has been born again.' . . . Jesus answered, 'In very truth I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God without being born from water and spirit.'" John 3:3-5 (REB) Lacking being born again, none of the pre Christian faithful servants of God are going to heaven. They looked forward to a resurrection in a paradise earth. That is why at Luke 23:43 Jesus tells the man hanging next to him, "Truly I tell you: today you will be with me in Paradise." What Jesus was telling him is that once his kingdom began to rule over the earth, Jesus would raise him to life in the restored paradise conditions his rule will bring to the earth.
The meek inherit the earth, but only those born again by water (being baptized as a follower of Christ) and by spirit (chosen by anointing with holy spirit to rule with Christ in his kingdom) will receive a heavenly resurrection. All other resurrections are earthly resurrections that will take place during Christ's thousand year rein. "Martha said to Jesus, 'Lord, if you had been here my brother would not have died. Even now I know that God will grant you whatever you ask of him.' Jesus said, 'Your brother will rise again.' 'I know that he will rise again', said Martha, 'at the resurrection on the last day.' John 11:21-24 (REB) Martha was a disciple or follower of Jesus and had been taught personally by him. She knew about the resurrection and when it would take place. She also knew her brother would sleep in death until that day. Jesus then went on to resurrect her brother Lazarus demonstrating that his father had given him the authority to raise the dead. There are many interesting things recorded in the Bible that we can learn much from considering. We can also learn much from the things that are not recorded and the reasons why they do not appear in the scriptures. For example, once Lazarus was raised, we fail to find his report of what happened to him. If he had experienced anything worth reporting, it would be in the Bible for us to read about and strengthen our faith. But instead we fail to find a single word from Lazarus saying anything about the experience of death. All we have are Jesus' words that Lazarus was asleep and he was going to wake him up. From Lazarus' viewpoint, one moment he was dying and the next he woke up covered in bandages. There was nothing in between, he has asleep in death and didn't experience anything, which is why he had nothing to report.
God is just and he is fair, all men have the opportunity of gaining everlasting life, Christ died for everyone. Considering God's perfect justice and wisdom, the doctrine of immortality of the soul makes no sense. For what would be the fate of the many who lived before Christ was even born and who never had the opportunity to hear the good news? Many did not even worship the True God, they lived in ignorance so when they died, if the soul was immortal, where did they go? Under the man made doctrine of the immortality of the soul, this is a impossible question to answer and has resulted in some truly strange answers which have nothing to do with God's word. However, if we accept the Bible's teaching that the soul dies when we die, the answer is simple. Those who never had the chance to hear the good news are asleep in death and will receive a earthly resurrection at the last day. They will then be taught the good news and those who accept it will get to inherit the earth as part of the meek, those who reject it go back to the dust.
What happens to us when we die is a major part of the belief structure of any religion, and as my above quote points out, nearly all religions are in conflict with what God's word states on the subject. That is how you shift the chaff from the wheat. There are many other points, many of them as basic this one, that most religions are in conflict with scripture. I don't want to make this post too long if it isn't already, so we can save some points for later.
So to sum up in a nut shell, the Bible contains the doctrines that a "True" religion would follow, there is only one united group of true followers of Christ according to scripture, it is possible to identify this one group by it's following the Bible. My belief is that Jehovah's Witnesses are this one group of true Christians, as demonstrated by their beliefs being in harmony with the Bible and their being the only group to actively follow Jesus' command to preach the good news earth wide. The Witnesses take no part in the religious violence our world seems to becoming inflamed with once again, like a possible return to the Dark Ages. They have always remained neutral and do not take any part in wars or violence of any sort. Witnesses have shown that they would rather die than actively support wars and political parties, because of this they have been attacked by political and religious extremists, and even mainstream religions. "When Jehovah's Witnesses were suppressed in Bavaria on April 13 the Church even accepted the assignment given it by the Ministry of Education and Religion of reporting on any member of the sect still practicing the forbidden religion." The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany, by Guenter Lewy, Page 43. That was then, and even in our comparable 'peaceful' times, simular things are still going on as the link below will show.
http://www.jw-media.org/newsroom/index.htm?content=curren...
I bring this point up to show that Jehovah's Witnesses are different from all other religions and as a result are persecuted at times by groups who claim to follow the Bible and by other religions as well. When you boil it all down there are really only two types of religion, Jehovah's Witnesses, and everybody else. The Witnesses are unique, both in their adherence to following the Bible in deed as well in word, and in their political neutrality and not having any part in religious hatred other than being a victim of it. Due to their tight adherence to scripture, the Witnesses can readily support all of their beliefs by citing many Bible verses, while other religions are often found to be in an embarrassing position scripturally on many of their doctrines. Which is why many religious leaders instruct their members not to talk to Jehovah's Witnesses, because they know this. It is also note worthy that Jehovah's Witnesses are not instructed not to call on or talk to members of certain religions, but instead call on everyone everywhere. When the Witnesses call, they don't condemn other religions, they point out things believed in common and how the Bible provides the answers to the questions that all mankind has. The result of this approach is just the opposite of the effect of the sectarian divisiveness other religious have. All of Jehovah's Witnesses world wide are one cohesive group without the divisions that have cut other religions into mutually disagreeable fractions and sects. They are free of racial, political, ethnic, economic and regional differences. They alone enjoy the gift of unity that Christ wished his followers to have.
Sincerely Yours; Wm Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by ohnhai, posted 01-12-2005 7:12 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 3:42 PM wmscott has replied
 Message 24 by ohnhai, posted 01-14-2005 10:14 AM wmscott has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 10 of 302 (176582)
01-13-2005 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by General Nazort
01-13-2005 12:40 PM


But please don't compare religions to cereal manafacturers each claiming to have "real" cereal... that analogy simply doesn't work.
To the degree that modern organized religion seems to largely be a commercial enterprise, I think the analogy is apt.
Have you ever flipped on The Bible Network and watched their shows? Every one of them has the lecturer surrounded by all this Baroque, gold-fillegried furniture. I've never seen a more ostentatious display of material wealth, and this from the religion that claims that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven.
If you can't see how the modern, media-savvy church is packaging religion for your consumption, then you're simply not looking with a critical enough eye. I suggest you begin with those WWJD wristbands.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 3:47 PM crashfrog has replied
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PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6898 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 11 of 302 (176603)
01-13-2005 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ohnhai
01-13-2005 12:49 PM


The word would have to be the Bible.
The conclusions reached must be by scripture compared with scripture.
Black must stay black, etc.
And God forbid, one should run with a single thought and not consider the entire plot. That would ruin any book, not just the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by ohnhai, posted 01-13-2005 12:49 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by ohnhai, posted 01-13-2005 7:31 PM PecosGeorge has replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6898 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 12 of 302 (176608)
01-13-2005 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by wmscott
01-13-2005 2:39 PM


Re: In their greed for money they will trade on your credulity with sheer fabrication
Which Bible do the witnesses use to spread their message?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by wmscott, posted 01-13-2005 2:39 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by wmscott, posted 01-14-2005 5:35 PM PecosGeorge has replied

PecosGeorge
Member (Idle past 6898 days)
Posts: 863
From: Texas
Joined: 04-09-2004


Message 13 of 302 (176610)
01-13-2005 3:47 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by crashfrog
01-13-2005 2:58 PM


These people have nothing to do with religion. They are a financial enterprise, it's how they make their living and a very good one. They know exactly what to say to instill fear in those they touch. Send money and you won't go to hell. It's an old practice.
They have their reward.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2005 2:58 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by crashfrog, posted 01-13-2005 5:05 PM PecosGeorge has replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1493 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 14 of 302 (176646)
01-13-2005 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 13 by PecosGeorge
01-13-2005 3:47 PM


These people have nothing to do with religion.
Aside, you know, from running the churches, leading the sermons, and acting as the public face of the Christian church in the media, politics, and at the local level.
Other than that, you're right. Absolutely no connection whatsoever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by PecosGeorge, posted 01-13-2005 3:47 PM PecosGeorge has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 420 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 15 of 302 (176687)
01-13-2005 6:41 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by ohnhai
01-12-2005 7:12 PM


I don't believe that any one religion CAN make the claim to being the fundamental truth.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

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