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Author Topic:   how can any one religion make a valid claim to be the fundamental truth?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 271 of 302 (181600)
01-29-2005 7:05 AM
Reply to: Message 264 by ohnhai
01-28-2005 11:30 AM


Re: What's in a name..
He is clearly a Christian and follows that religion
Yes, does that make it the truth?
He even admits to being religious, going to church,
Yes, does that make it truth?
that the message of bible is the at the core of this belief system, and that God, Jesus, and the holy spirit are the ultimate truth,
No, and yes.
The word of God can be found through reading the bible.
The word of God was preached and studied for 300 years before the bible was even made. so the bible is not 100% neccesary to come to know the truth, but it can be a helpful tool for you.
There is no belief system, just truth.
God Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are the truth.
You come to know them by asking, and seeking, even if you have to read other religious documents. Some people even come to know the truth by not reading those documents, and just being prayed for, in mission trips. Yes, they are preaching the gospel, but how can after only a few moments of preaching, and then some praying can people be overwelmed with the truth, and experience a feeling like no other before in their lives? Then continue that forever?
He has also stated no religion can hold the truth absolute.
Correct. You do not need a religion to experience the truth. The truth holds the religion, not the other way around.
Thus it follows that his Christian views on the nature of God can’t make the claim to be absolutely true as they are clearly of a religious nature and more specifically pertaining to the religion of Christianity, which as has been agreed by both parties can’t claim to hold the absolute truth because it is a religion, and thus open to error.
Yes. Religion is open to error. Show me one Christian religion that follows the bible, or God's word to the "T".
Religion is only man's interpretation of the God's holy word, there-for subject to error. We constantly make the mistake of looking for God in religion, man, woman, science, and I'm sure a few other things, but only one thing is perfect, and that is God almighty. Only one thing is true, that is God almighty. Only one thing can save you at the end of this life, and that is God.
I can’t see he has any where to go other than accepting his views are religious and thus carry the possibility that they could be wrong, or retracting the agreed statement that religions can’t make a claim to hold the fundamental truth.
From my very first reply, I stated:
quote:
I am going to let you off the hook. The truth lies within yourself. Seek and ye shall find it. Pray to God, he will give you the answers. Listen when you pray also. Listen to your thoughts. God is love, truth is love.
But you insist on trying to put down my religion. I could give a rat's ass what you think of my religion. I do however care about what you think about God.
Has my message changed throughout this entire thread?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 264 by ohnhai, posted 01-28-2005 11:30 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 280 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 8:03 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 281 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 8:34 AM riVeRraT has replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 272 of 302 (181601)
01-29-2005 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 6:24 AM


Re: What's in a name..
I know its fustrating for you to undersatnd, because all you want to do is pick me apart, or pick a certain religion apart, and say, it cannot be true because of this or that. but so far, everytime I have seen someone in this forum try to pick apart Christianity, it is really directed towards man, not God.
Do you know what. I don’t CARE if god exists or not that is not the issue here.
Nor do I care what you believe or not believe as to the nature of god.
So what is the point? That you know the real truth and we don’t? Is that it? That we are simply deluding ourselves in not seeing the truth in what is so evident to you?
The nature and existence of God is utterly a separate issue from religions or beliefs in god. Belief in God and the resulting religions are a man made entity that have little bearing on the god/s should they in fact exist. Belief in god doesn’t make him exist, lack of belief doesn’t deny him existence. I am not asking you to flat out deny the existence of god, nor would I. If you say I admit that, despite my 100% certainty on this issue, I could in fact be wrong I’m NOT gonna jump up and down as say you denied the existence of god.
ANY human notion concept or idea is open to error, that’s human nature. This applies to politics ,science and religion. Any human concept or notion regarding the existence or nature of the God/s is also open to error. There are truths in all religious views there are also fallacies in all religious views, you can t escape this Thus NO religious view is 100% right nor 100% wrong.
You say you are a Non-denominational Christian. Do you not see that this and the statements you make as to the nature of god are just as human as any others and thus open to error?
Let’s make this easy.
Do you, in your non-denominational Christian faith, accept that there is even the slightest chance you could be wrong in your ideas and beliefs as to the truth and nature of God? Yes or No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 6:24 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 275 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:21 AM ohnhai has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 273 of 302 (181602)
01-29-2005 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
01-28-2005 2:06 PM


Re: I think you are approaching a very important point...
When it comes down to issues of Fundamental Truth, the only possiblity is to examine ANY belief system in relation to the world around us and coexistence. If a belief system works then it can be said to be true. This is religion. Religion can only be judged based on the actions and behavior of those that embrace it.
Beautiful. But if everyone's actions did not conform to the wrttien word, then is it the word, or the people behind those actions?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 01-28-2005 2:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by jar, posted 01-29-2005 10:44 AM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 274 of 302 (181603)
01-29-2005 7:15 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by ohnhai
01-28-2005 4:28 PM


Re: I think you are approaching a very important point...
Polytheistic religions on the whole tend to be a bit more flexible (but not much) because as they have many gods they can’t very easily deny the existence of yet more gods can they? After all what’s one more god when you have a few hundred already?
Weeeeeeeeeeee, lets have a million god's, why not, lol.
Monotheistic Religions on the other hand DO have a problem with the existence of other gods, as this does tend to undermine the validity of their claim to know the one true God.
Do religions have a problem with other god's, or does God have a problem with other god's?
Typically what you do is end up arguing the toss for thousands of years occasionally resorting to killing each other when things get over heated.
Well if your Christian, and you initiate the battle, then your not really being Christian are you? Christian's should technically be able to co-exist with all other religions. It's when your religion starts telling you to kill all others who don't believe in it, there is a problem.
Tell me, you think there is truth in that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 266 by ohnhai, posted 01-28-2005 4:28 PM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 277 by sidelined, posted 01-29-2005 7:37 AM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 279 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 7:45 AM riVeRraT has not replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 275 of 302 (181604)
01-29-2005 7:21 AM
Reply to: Message 272 by ohnhai
01-29-2005 7:06 AM


Re: What's in a name..
So what is the point? That you know the real truth and we don’t? Is that it? That we are simply deluding ourselves in not seeing the truth in what is so evident to you?
No, the point is that you seek the truth.
There are truths in all religious views there are also fallacies in all religious views, you can t escape this Thus NO religious view is 100% right nor 100% wrong.
Yes, which goes back to my original statement:
quote:
I am going to let you off the hook. The truth lies within yourself. Seek and ye shall find it. Pray to God, he will give you the answers. Listen when you pray also. Listen to your thoughts. God is love, truth is love.
You say you are a Non-denominational Christian. Do you not see that this and the statements you make as to the nature of god are just as human as any others and thus open to error?
Yes, mans interpretation of the truth is open to error. I am not perfect, you are not perfect. Only the truth is perfect. I know the truth, and the truth knows me. Can I explain to you how to come to know this truth? I can try, thats all. I can pray for you, I do.
I give you all my blessings.
quote:
I am going to let you off the hook. The truth lies within yourself. Seek and ye shall find it. Pray to God, he will give you the answers. Listen when you pray also. Listen to your thoughts. God is love, truth is love.
Would you not agree, that the way to communicate with God, and the truth would be through prayer?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 272 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 7:06 AM ohnhai has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 278 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 7:41 AM riVeRraT has replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 276 of 302 (181605)
01-29-2005 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 270 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 6:33 AM


Re: What's in a name..
I think scraf would be my witness to me admitting several times in this forum to being wrong. Something I have seen no-one else do, even when they were dead wrong.
(my emphasis)
Excuse me?Message 201Message 229 examples of me admitting error Message 28 me admitting I could be wrong?. I’m not asking you to say you ARE wrong, just to recognise the possibility that you COULD be.
Big difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 270 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 6:33 AM riVeRraT has not replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5907 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 277 of 302 (181607)
01-29-2005 7:37 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 7:15 AM


Re: I think you are approaching a very important point...
riVeRrat
Well if your Christian, and you initiate the battle, then your not really being Christian are you? Christian's should technically be able to co-exist with all other religions. It's when your religion starts telling you to kill all others who don't believe in it, there is a problem.
Tell me, you think there is truth in that?
It kind of depends on how you wish to view the actions of your god as he commands the people under him to participate in what would today be labeled ethnic cleansing and war crime.
Deu 13:4 Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
Deu 13:5 And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Deu 13:6 If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;
Deu 13:7 [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;
Deu 13:8 Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:
Deu 13:9 But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Deu 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
Deu 13:11 And all Israel shall hear, and fear, and shall do no more any such wickedness as this is among you.
Deu 13:12 If thou shalt hear [say] in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying,
Deu 13:13 [Certain] men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;
Deu 13:14 Then shalt thou enquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, [if it be] truth, [and] the thing certain, [that] such abomination is wrought among you;
Deu 13:15 Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that [is] therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.
Deu 13:16 And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.
Deu 13:17 And there shall cleave nought of the cursed thing to thine hand: that the LORD may turn from the fierceness of his anger, and shew thee mercy, and have compassion upon thee, and multiply thee, as he hath sworn unto thy fathers;
Deu 13:18 When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do [that which is] right in the eyes of the LORD thy God
God has no problem with other religions.It is a simple matter to have his believers just smite them

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:15 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:29 PM sidelined has replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 278 of 302 (181608)
01-29-2005 7:41 AM
Reply to: Message 275 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 7:21 AM


Re: What's in a name..
Yes, mans interpretation of the truth is open to error. I am not perfect, you are not perfect. Only the truth is perfect. I know the truth, and the truth knows me
Ok so you know the truth and it knows you, please answer the question.
Do you, in your non-denominational Christian faith, accept that there is even the slightest chance you could be wrong in your ideas and beliefs as to the truth and nature of God (the ‘truth’), Yes or No?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 275 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:21 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 285 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:33 PM ohnhai has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 279 of 302 (181610)
01-29-2005 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 274 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 7:15 AM


Re: I think you are approaching a very important point...
Monotheistic Religions on the other hand DO have a problem with the existence of other gods, as this does tend to undermine the validity of their claim to know the one true God.
Do religions have a problem with other god's, or does God have a problem with other god's?
I only made a claim for religions.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 274 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:15 AM riVeRraT has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 280 of 302 (181614)
01-29-2005 8:03 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 7:05 AM


Re: What's in a name..
Show me one Christian religion that follows the bible, or God's word to the "T".
From what you say I can only assume yours claims to.
Would you not agree, that the way to communicate with God, and the truth would be through prayer?
who knows, If God existed i would expect he has email by now.
This message has been edited by ohnhai, 01-29-2005 08:46 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:05 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 286 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:41 PM ohnhai has not replied

ohnhai
Member (Idle past 5161 days)
Posts: 649
From: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 11-17-2004


Message 281 of 302 (181618)
01-29-2005 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 271 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 7:05 AM


Re: What's in a name..
Yes, they are preaching the gospel, but how can after only a few moments of preaching, and then some praying can people be overwhelmed with the truth, and experience a feeling like no other before in their lives? Then continue that forever?
They are gullible twa fools? That or they are willing to do and say anything to get the preacher to ‘shut the hell up’?
Just because some people believe in god, or that people have the capacity to be convinced in the existence of god doesn’t prove the existence or power of god. God is separate from the belief in god.
But you insist on trying to put down my religion. I could give a rat's ass what you think of my religion. I do however care about what you think about God.
Why should you care what I think about god? Wouldn’t that be between me and the big guy?
but only one thing is perfect, and that is God almighty. Only one thing is true, that is God almighty. Only one thing can save you at the end of this life, and that is God.
Are you 100% absolutely sure of that? Are you convinced in your mind that this is the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 271 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:05 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 287 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:44 PM ohnhai has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 282 of 302 (181626)
01-29-2005 9:07 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 6:10 AM


Re: Hiding in Vagueness
quote:
This is what I am saying. There is no real way to prove it. If there is, I really don't know what it is, and if I did claim to know, you guys would rip it apart anyway.
Well, I can "prove" my love to my family, by keeping my promises, showing affection, telling them I love them, etc.
That would be the folk or common definition of "prove".
If you want to use the mathematical definition of "prove", then no, I don't think that love is applicable to that kind of proof.
I can study the brain activity and various other physical and behavioral signs and markers that people display when they report feelings of love, and quantify and define and study love that way. Of course, studying love this way cannot determine if people are actually feeling love or not, only that the brain activity and behavior patterns are consistent with the predictions the researcher made of people who are feeling that emotion.
So, which way are you talking about? Which definition of "prove" do you want to use?
quote:
You see, there is the theory of Love (TOL)
There is? What would that be? What are it's predictions?
quote:
then there is Love, the fact, then there is the overwelming evidence of Love.
Well, there is evidence of behavior that we interpret and understand to be borne of love, yes.
quote:
When does it all end?
When does what end?
quote:
Whats next, Love in a petri dish, oops I forgot, artificial insemination.
What's wrong with trying to understand the physical basis for our emotions?
quote:
True Love is everlasting, and it is not selfish. How can we prove Love without time?
What do you mean by "prove" in this instance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 6:10 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 288 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:51 PM nator has not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 283 of 302 (181643)
01-29-2005 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 273 by riVeRraT
01-29-2005 7:08 AM


Re: I think you are approaching a very important point...
Beautiful. But if everyone's actions did not conform to the wrttien word, then is it the word, or the people behind those actions?
That really has things backwards IMHO.
If the actions of the people work in the world around us and aid in coexistence and those actions are consistent with some written word, then that written word may be truth.
If the actions of the people are consistent with some written word but do not work in the world around us or promote coexistence, then the written word is not truth.
If the actions of the people work in the world around us and aid in coexistence and those actions do not conform with some written word, then the written word is not truth.
It's not the written word that determines truth but the reality of actions.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 273 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 7:08 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 289 by riVeRraT, posted 01-29-2005 5:57 PM jar has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 284 of 302 (181701)
01-29-2005 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 277 by sidelined
01-29-2005 7:37 AM


Re: I think you are approaching a very important point...
That's Old Testament. More of a Jewish way of thinking.
Isn't it obvious Christ doesn't want us to think like that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 277 by sidelined, posted 01-29-2005 7:37 AM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 291 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 7:27 PM riVeRraT has replied
 Message 293 by sidelined, posted 01-29-2005 9:37 PM riVeRraT has replied

riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 415 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 285 of 302 (181703)
01-29-2005 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 278 by ohnhai
01-29-2005 7:41 AM


Re: What's in a name..
Yes absolutly. But the chance to me is more like my interpretation of the truth clouded by by my sinful way of thinking. There is always room for improvment in my faith, in my life, and in the way God wants me to be. I am no better than you
This does not invalidate the religion, or the bible, and definately does not invalidate the truth.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 278 by ohnhai, posted 01-29-2005 7:41 AM ohnhai has not replied

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