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Author Topic:   What's the best strategy for defending evolution?
Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 53 of 131 (291019)
02-28-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by Quetzal
02-28-2006 9:26 AM


Re: Ignore 'Em
Quetzal writes:
Sadly, ignoring a problem won't make it go away. It merely abdicates the field to the forces of ignorance and supertsitition.
I completely agree, and as long as the task is focused on science education then I think success is possible. Science can even point to a number of successes in the courts. But if the task is allowed to expand beyond that then it becomes daunting because t isn't just creationism. There's a long list of pseudo-scientific claims that laypeople have a weakness for. Just off the top of my head there's magnetic bracelets, astrology, UFOs, ESP, clairvoyance, pyramid power, spoon bending, etc., etc., etc.
And it isn't just pseudo-science that's a threat. Outside the realm of science there are pyramid schemes, lotteries, contests, stock-pushers, land schemes, get-rich-quick books and tapes, etc., etc., etc.
We need a high school course whose description runs, "As you prepare to enter the real world, this course will teach you how to navigate the flim-flam that attempts to separate you from both your money and your reason."
This is sort of an aside, but I've been asked my opinion in the past year or so about a couple schemes available on the Internet. Both are similar in that you pay an up-front fee and are given a set of webpages that are somewhat configurable. For example, you can define your own logo, control textual descriptions, etc.
One of these schemes is for selling a group of company's beauty products. You recruit customers who go to your website to purchase products, and you get a small commission on each sale. The only problem is that the products are available at all supermarkets and drugstores for the same price, even cheaper once you factor in shipping charges, and you don't have to wait for delivery. Only people doing you a favor would shop that way. I advised against it, the person tried it anyway, and now more than a year later she has yet to make a single sale.
The other scheme was financial. It's a complicated website and a complicated scheme, but basically you're set up to act as the middleman for selling financial paper and take a substantial commission for providing the service. I advised against this one, too, and a year later the person has yet to handle a single sale.
I believe the price of entry for the beauty product scheme was less than a $100, but for the financial service scheme was around $500, with much more money to be spent in training courses should you choose to take them.
I like these people no less for falling for these schemes, but despite how well I know them their experience provides me no insights as to why anyone could fall for them. It's a mystery.
Bringing this post back on topic, the average person in the world is always going to be vulnerable to a wide range of nonsense. There's probably nothing that can be done to change that. But I do think scientists have a serious responsibility to protect science education, and it's a big part of the reason this site exists.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by Quetzal, posted 02-28-2006 9:26 AM Quetzal has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Quetzal, posted 02-28-2006 1:31 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 58 by EZscience, posted 02-28-2006 3:45 PM Percy has not replied
 Message 106 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 9:24 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 107 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 9:38 AM Percy has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 70 of 131 (291164)
03-01-2006 8:09 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by iano
03-01-2006 7:06 AM


Re: "Scientism" -as if that existed
iano writes:
crashfrog writes:
You know, many people - just about everyone - accept the statements of their doctors with literally no ability to assess the results of tests or diagnoses on their own. Does that make all of America "medicists?" We hire lawyers to navigate the minefields of the criminal and civil legal codes, because we often can't understand legal machinations without years of study - are Americans largely "counselists"? Is that "lawyerism"?
Its called faith.
Crash used the word trust, and one of the definitions of faith can be used as a synonym for trust. In that sense of the word both you and Crash are saying the same thing. When anyone says they have faith in their lawyer or doctor or electrician they mean they trust him. They definitely do not intend the definition of faith that means a "secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will" (from Answers.com).
One of the common creationist arguments against evolution is a semantic claim that it is religion. Creationists will say, "Evolutionists believe in evolution, while creationists believe in God." Or they'll say, "Evolutionists have faith in science, while creationists have faith in God." But because one definition of belief and faith is being applied to evolution and science, while a different definition is being applied to religion, the argument contains a simple logical fallacy and so fails.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 7:06 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2006 8:30 AM Percy has not replied
 Message 73 by nwr, posted 03-01-2006 9:16 AM Percy has replied
 Message 83 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 1:49 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 78 of 131 (291195)
03-01-2006 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by nwr
03-01-2006 9:16 AM


Re: "Scientism" -as if that existed
nwr writes:
Percy writes:
But because one definition of belief and faith is being applied to evolution and science, while a different definition is being applied to religion, the argument contains a simple logical fallacy and so fails.
There, I disagree. The argument is not intended to be logic, and therefore cannot be a logical fallacy. The argument is intended to give highly gullible people an excuse to dismiss science and its evidence in favor of illogic and belief.
At that, it often succeeds.
Avoiding the issue of whether intention removes the inherent fallacy, I agree that it's an effective argument in many quarters. If pointing out the fallacy isn't an effective counter, what is?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by nwr, posted 03-01-2006 9:16 AM nwr has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 93 of 131 (291260)
03-01-2006 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by iano
03-01-2006 1:49 PM


Re: Scientism
Hi Iano,
You're actually making two different points. One is that science isn't the only path to knowledge. No argument there. But when the type of knowledge you're interested in is how the physical world works then you can't beat science's track record. Current in wires may actually be a mere reflection of some underlying reality that we can't detect (a la Plato), but it was science that figured it out and harnessed it for use in your computer.
Your other point attempts an analogy between science and religion:
iano writes:
Such scientists become the High Priests. The Peer-Reviewed papers treated just like Holy Scripture. And a raft of non-scientific science adherants, the congregation. We even have evangelists sent forth to the likes of EvC to spread the good news. Can you not see the hallmarks of classical Religion here?
But this is just an analogy. You can draw similar analogies for plumbing, electrical wiring and accounting. And all of these things, similar to science, have an empirical, factual basis. Science is no more religion than plumbing. One can convert from Christianity to Buddhism with no ill effects, but it wouldn't be wise to convert from double-entry-bookeeping-ism to just-spend-the-money-ism, or from gravity-ism to I-can-fly-ism. I can break all 10 commandments tomorrow, and if I'm careful enough there will be no ill-effects in this world. But science has an empirical foundation so real that to ignore it is to take your life in your hands. It is not religion.
People can choose to take scientists' word for what science says, or they can learn the science for themselves, or they can not learn science and reject it for flimsy religious reasons. It's up to each individual. You can't force someone to believe something.
But it is an incorrect and hollow criticism, not to mention ambiguous, to say that science's weakness is that it establishes artificial boundaries that are unquantifiable as to sufficiency, whatever that might mean. Maybe an example would help make clear what you mean.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 1:49 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 9:56 PM Percy has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 114 of 131 (291458)
03-02-2006 10:55 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
03-02-2006 10:40 AM


Re: OT, briefly
Schraf writes:
I live in New England as of 2 weeks ago.
Hey, welcome neighbor! A university town, I expect?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 10:40 AM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 1:17 PM Percy has replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 116 of 131 (291520)
03-02-2006 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by nator
03-02-2006 1:17 PM


Re: OT, briefly
Hanover.
My son used to attend a tennis camp in Hanover - they used Dartmouth university facilities.
Schraf writes:
Omniverous and I were chatting the other night and we both expressed interest in a EvC New England picnic this summer.
Interested?
More like terrified!
Perhaps this could be the first of an annual event. We could have some contests and hand out awards.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 1:17 PM nator has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22508
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.4


Message 118 of 131 (291541)
03-02-2006 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by FliesOnly
03-02-2006 4:11 PM


Re: OT, briefly
It was Schraf's suggestion, but I'm going to assume the "New England" portion of "EvC New England Picnic refers" to the location and not to any residence requirement. If enough non-New Englanders attend we could perhaps arrange Boston tours, maybe even a duck tour!
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by FliesOnly, posted 03-02-2006 4:11 PM FliesOnly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by nator, posted 03-02-2006 4:54 PM Percy has not replied

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