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Author Topic:   What's the best strategy for defending evolution?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 131 (291174)
03-01-2006 9:54 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by crashfrog
03-01-2006 9:37 AM


Re: "Scientism" -as if that existed
quote:
In fact one of the prized aspects of religious faith is that you keep believing even when it seems like you're just not getting results (see "Footprints.")
Or the results themselves are rather ambiguously defined, or deferred until after death (see "Kiss Hank's Ass").

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by crashfrog, posted 03-01-2006 9:37 AM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by crashfrog, posted 03-01-2006 10:05 AM Chiroptera has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 131 (291176)
03-01-2006 10:00 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by Silent H
03-01-2006 8:30 AM


In fact, I don't tend to trust my doctors. Although I recognize that a physician is highly trained and knows more than I do about medical problems (and has access to fancy diagnostic tools that I don't), I never assume that the doctor really knows what is going on in that particular case. I am merely playing the odds; I am more likely to live a longer, healthier life if I follow the doctor's advise than if I don't.
That is quite a bit different from evangelical Christianity, where actual honest trust and belief is a requirement.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2006 8:30 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2006 12:20 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 131 (291216)
03-01-2006 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Silent H
03-01-2006 12:20 PM


So, to bring this back to topic (well, not really I guess), what we are saying is that one shouldn't trust one's religious leaders overly much, accept what they say provisionally and act according to their suggestions and guidelines in order to effect the desired results, but be prepared to seek a second (and even third) opinion, and dump them when it becomes obvious that their "diagnoses" and "prescriptions" are not working as they should.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Silent H, posted 03-01-2006 12:20 PM Silent H has not replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 131 (291236)
03-01-2006 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by crashfrog
03-01-2006 2:01 PM


Re: Scientism
quote:
My point was that, whatever about the potential anyone has to educate themselves to a sufficient level so as to satisfy themselves as to the accuracy and validity of evolution evidence, this will never actually occur.
But this has already been rebutted. It's honestly not that hard to be sufficiently educated.
This was the topic of the very first contributions that iano made on this forum. It was pretty well rebutted, in my opinion (oh, am I sounding like randman?). But evidence, logic, and common sense are easily disposed of when they point in directions away from the one's preferred "truths".

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by crashfrog, posted 03-01-2006 2:01 PM crashfrog has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 2:27 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 97 of 131 (291322)
03-01-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by iano
03-01-2006 2:27 PM


Hello, iano.
You seem to be saying, "We can't really be sure we know anything. Therefore, we should accept the dogma presented in a particular religious text as interpreted by a particular religious sect." But you usually seem to be more intelligent than this, so I suspect that I am having trouble grasping the point you have been trying to make since you arrived here.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 2:27 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 8:19 PM Chiroptera has replied

Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 104 of 131 (291415)
03-02-2006 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 98 by iano
03-01-2006 8:19 PM


quote:
So maybe you could do me a favour and answer the question asked in my last post.
Since you are leaving I would prefer to give you the last word. But if you insist:
quote:
I don't know much about US high school education but swallowing that such students can form anything other than pseudo-objective decisions about evolution (be it true or not) by being introduced to some basic concepts that would eventually be applied in direct study of its inner workings, is proving a tad difficult for me.
And I don't know much about Irish high schools students, but I find it difficult to swallow the idea that they can form anything other than pseudo-objective decisions about the composition and state of the earth's core, how the sun is powered, or whether the Second Punic War took place.
It is true that high school students (and most other people) do not have access to the actual seismic data, the actual spectroscopic data, or the actual historical documents, the training to critically examine them and determine their reliability, or the ability to put them into context with other data and to properly interpret them.
One can argue that no one can be certain of anything outside of a very small bubble of direct experience. It is an interesting problem when one first confronts basic epistemological questions; however, most people don't let themselves become paralized by it (well, okay, I did) and eventually move on to other interesting questions.
However, you do not seem to be saying that no one can be certain of anything outside of a very small bubble of direct experience. You seem to mostly have a problem with one particular model that contradicts a literal account of a particular religious sect's sacred scriptures. Theories and beliefs that are consistent with those scriptures seem to get a pass from you; in fact, you don't seem to apply the same skepticism to the tenets held by that religious sect.
That is why it is hard to take seriously the concerns about "evolutionary brainwashing" or the "uncritical acceptance of the dogma of evolutionist 'experts'". Those raising these concerns only seem to raise them when it comes to protecting their own idiosyncratic beliefs; in fact, here in the US those pushing these concerns have shown themselves quite happy with the uncritical acceptance of dogma as long as it is their own religious and political dogma that is being accepted.
Now a general discussion of epistemological questions might be interesting indeed; however, you haven't really given a good reason why the focus should be narrowed to the theory of evolution.
-
quote:
If I don't talk to you again here then goodbye for now.
I am sincerely sorry to see you go. However I understand; I had to go AWOL for a few months, and one's interests do change over time. As others have said, I hope to see again from time to time.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 98 by iano, posted 03-01-2006 8:19 PM iano has not replied

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