We youth at EvC are in Moral Decline

How do these children compare to those where the parents are simply staying together for the sake of the children?Do you see what I am getting at? It isn't simply a case of 'divorce is bad'. Yes there are negatives to getting divorced, there are also negatives to staying married simply for the children. There are also positives to both, which is why you can't simply say that a higher divorce rate is a sign of worsening morals.------------------
He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.
- Douglas Adams, The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Good point. I hadn't considered that. I have not said that a higher divorce rate is a sign of worsening morals. I have said that a high divorce rate is bad (and I don't mean in a moral sense). And that divorce is a moral issue where children are involved.

I'm trying to define the difference between moral and practical in my mind, and it's making my brain hurt.I read a book once that covered social interactions in "primitive" tribes. It made a point of saying that controlling sexual impulses was beneficial to the individual because it was essential to the society, and the society was benificial to the individual. It was a 60's book, and it used the term "morality" to refer to whatever limits on sexual interaction the tribe placed on its members. (Adultery, for example, could be a major societal issue in a small tribe or village. In a real small tribe, it is likely to be life-changing.)Since, in most cases, a church of the kind I believe in is going to be its own small or medium-sized village/tribe/community, there is a real practical issue to marriage, that is therefore a moral issue as well.I guess I'm off the subject. As per America, I think divorce is certainly a moral issue if the children of the marriage are hurt as a result. It is even more of a moral issue if the child turns out unsupervised, lonely, and becomes a drain on society rather than a help to it. lol. Y'all turned out pretty consistent in your thoughts on Ron's thoughts. I don't really have a problem with what he said.

Thanks for your supportive comment, but I don't remember any simple lessons. When your world view is being stripped from you, there's nothing simple, even intellectually. It gets doggone hard to think when there are big issues at stake, and religious issues can be big ones. Sometimes, when you let go of a religious issue, it feels a lot like it's attached right to your intestines and your guts are being ripped out with it.I'm just showing a little sympathy for those that haven't been able to admit the failure they see around them. (I've noticed Christians are easily able to say they don't love or they don't live like Christ or that they are lukewarm to one another, but admitting it to people like me who say they are a failure is quite another thing.)

Oh, great. I've wasted a lot of words--bad fault of mine, but really all I jumped in on in this thread was that I think rising divorce rates are bad. I have no other issue.

I understand that they do worse than children whose parents stay together just for their sake. I guess I'll have to do some looking into this, then get back to y'all. It is more complicated than saying "Divorce rates are up and divorce is bad so morality is down." That's true. You live in a different country, so maybe we don't see the same things, but my question to any American would be, "Can you really deny that people, in general, are more likely to walk away from a marriage, even with children involved, despite the damage it does to the children?"I think crime is up, children are raised in worse environments, people care more about themselves and less about others (and this is encouraged more), and solitary, disassociative (I may have made this word up) behavior (TV, computer, etc.) is way up. This means people know their neighbors less, have less friends, etc.I most certainly think the encouragement to "look out for number one" is a moral failure and when practiced widely in a society leads to a lot of problems.

I remember hearing all this back in the fifties. But then, apartment buildings were blamed on the "disassociative" behaviour. And I recall reading similar complaints written by Sumerians 5,000 years ago. That's capitalism for you, and besides, if you don't look out for number one, no one else will look out for him either. Now that's a fact.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

None that you'd rather discuss anyhow. eh? I mean, you have spent some effort debating what you believe to be 1. -a general decline in morality, 2. -a generally good economy (which you think is unrelated to morality) and 3. (a corollary of 2.?) -the prospects which today's youth have of enjoying the American dream (a debatable and oft debated issue).I don't know how one can consider any of these issues without the others coming up sooner or later. And I have thoroughly enjoyed debating these things with you. I have yet to search out relevant data on the price of homes and majority levels of income. I have however listened to programs on NPR which make a very good case for what I have asserted heretofore. Too bad I can't get my hands on the transcript.db------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Truthlover, you are making some good points and sensible arguments. The way you articulate in a kind and sincere manner reflects well on your username. I started out as a young man with nothing in a very poor economy. It wasn't long before I owned my own small trailer home and then into a cheap house with small down. You're right. Just about anyone with enough ambition and will, with enough sense to pinch the pennies and keep debt free otherwise can get into some kind of a self owned home. Having said that, the ever increasing government intrusion into homebuilding, permits and codes makes it harder. By "debt free" I mean going in debt for such things as cars, credit cards, etc. One can find a running usable automobile for as little as $150 in my area.

truthlover writes:

quote:

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I think crime is up

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You think wrong. Crime is down to its lowest levels since they started keeping statistics.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

buzsaw writes:

quote:

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Just about anyone with enough ambition and will, with enough sense to pinch the pennies and keep debt free otherwise can get into some kind of a self owned home.

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Yeah...all them poor, homeless people are just lazy bums who want a handout.------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

Here in West Texas, the Hispanic population, particularly those who learned English as a second language, end up in all the low-paying, bust-your-butt hard, and dangerous jobs like cowboying, oil well servicing, motel maids, nurse aides in nursing homes..... and then get victimised by loan sharks and "rent-to-own" stores and the like. A big part of the problem is education, and part of the problem with poor education is cultural, but in my looking around the real problem is good, ole-fashioned racism. "West Side Story" is about on its golden anniversary now, but Bernstein nailed it : "things can be bright in America if you are white in America!"
Lots of the self-owned homes many of these folks have worked hard to get sure aren't what folks would prefer to live in.

Except for the oil well servicing, I have done all the jobs you mentioned, and other menial tasks surrounded by whatever constituted the majority of poor workers in the particular region where the job was located. Mexican immigrants (and wetbacks) in southern Cal.; mostly white folk in Oregon and a sprinkling of Canadian nationals in the state of Washington. Be advised. Slavery is not dead. It's better now in some ways. It is now Equal Opportunity Slavery.------------------
Doesn't anyone graduate Sunday School?

Yes, slavery is pretty healthy. I have been a janitor, a turkey-thawer, and a giblet toter in my time, and I just can't recommend any of the three as avenues into the country club. "Giblet toter," is , however, a mighty good conversation starter on a resume.

No, most of them are drug addicts or alcoholics who don't like the rules in the flop houses that will actually help them. The ones that will help them require them to quit drugs and alcohol and will help them to do it.A poor, homeless person who is homeless out of bad luck and bad times is an endangered species. If you see one, keep track, because you'll probably never see another one. Not only that, but if you give that one you see directions to the salvation army (and if they're willing to ask questions about where to go if the salvation army can't help them) or to a group like fishes and loaves, they'll only be homeless that day.