Try and focus here, we are talking about the deep deep past.
Actually we are talking about the very shallow immediate past, up to 8,000 years ago.
You concede dating up to 4,400 +/- years ago is valid as a totally linear process back to that point.
So we will talk about 4,500 years ago.
Tree rings same as at 4,400 years ago, in the same tree no less. Same kind of limited growth during winter months as now, same kind of increased growth during summer months as now.
Temperature variations for the last 2000 years by tree-ring chronologies from Polar and Upper Mountain tree line in Siberia
Research plan: approaches and methods
The investigation methods include a set of experimental measurements, traditional for dendrochronology and dendroclimatology and widely used in world chief laboratories, and statistical approaches (site selection and material collection, annual tree-ring characteristics measurements by automatic devices and in densitometrical laboratory, cross-dating procedure, standardization of raw measurements and climatic signal discharge, estimation of climatic functions, creation of simple and multiple regression models of leading climatic factors reconstruction, spectral analysis of long-term temporal chronologies etc.) as well as worked out unique methods of annual tree-ring measurements and computer programs of raw data processing (automatic systems usage and systems for image analysis to measure cell structure of annual tree-rings, usage of simulation models of annual tree-ring formation by daily temperature, moisture and solar radiation changes, statistical multiple methods to reconstruct intraseasonal variability of climatic factors inferred from characteristics of annual tree-ring structure etc.) (Fig. 3). The latter are not only pioneer but also define priorities of Laboratory of Dendrochronology of Institute of Forest SB RAS in world dendroclimatology.
This being only 2000 years ago you have to agree, eh?
Note analysis of annual tree rings for daily patterns of growth, with variations from climate and seasonal effects. Effects that would not apply to a 'daily' tree ring based on a very long day cycle.
Effects that are seen in all the tree rings in the Bristlecone Pines, but especially those in the 4,500 year old tree ring.
evo conclusion: it was the same kind of time then as it is now.
simple conclusion: (stamps foot) no, it was totally different.
Now onto daze ...
quote:
... We see the same kind of growth in corals of the past.
Same in that they grew. Yes. Now, what other similarity can you nail down?
Same in that they grew in both daily and annual growth patterns entirely consistent with current growth patterns and a continued cycle of days and years as now. Corals are not the only evidence of both these patterns of growth happening:
NCCOS Research on Fish Otoliths Yields Key Environmental Clues
Thus, like trees' annual concentric growth rings, the number of otolith increments can be used to age fish in days. In addition to the daily patterns in increment deposition, an annual pattern also is evident. Fish and otolith growth is slower at some times of the year than at others (typically slow during winter), leading to daily increments that are closer together. This seasonal pattern in growth results in annual growth rings in otoliths, allowing determinations of the age of the fish in years.
Observed Growth Patterns from:
Days (from rotation of the earth on it's axis)
Years (from orbit of earth about the sun)
Australian Coral Records Research Group, IntroductionAustralian Coral Records Research Group, Summary of Presentations
Massive corals can provide high-resolution (annual and sub-annual) proxy climate and environmental records for the world’s shallow-water tropical ocean regions. The tropical regions are poorly represented by other sources of proxy climate records yet they are fundamental to understanding the global climate system and its variations.
Massive corals can provide such information both for the last several centuries (from living corals) and for well-dated windows of the more distant past (from well-preserved dead and fossil corals). Proxy climate and environmental information is stored in coral skeletons as growth characteristics (eg skeletal extension, density and calcification; cf tree rings) and through a wealth of isotopic and geochemical tracers which become incorporated into the skeleton during growth. Examples of information stored in coral skeletons include sea-surface temperatures (SSTs), river flow, rainfall, upwelling, salinity and anthropogenic influences.
Summary of Presentations:- There are daily and monthly variations in skeletal growth processes which could distort the timing and magnitude of geochemical signals in corals.
- Calcification varies geographically (with latitude and in different oceanic settings).
- Fluorescence records faithfully record the timing and magnitude of runoff from major rivers (Burdekin, Sepik) in wet, tropical catchments. There may be other sources of fluorescence, so this technique could be extended to document other important oceanic processes (eg upwelling).
- Other coral genera may provide useful information eg massive corals other than Porites, soft corals, and giant clams, such as Tridacna.
- Using a multi-proxy approach, a suite of climate information could be compiled at various temporal and spatial resolutions.
(Further Research Focus):
Reconstructing the temperature and monsoonal rainfall history of the western Pacific warm pool from the last glacial maximum to the present, and during interglacial periods warmer than present.
Note correlations to climate, annual rings and seasonal patterns within the annual rings.
Australian Coral Records Research Group, Coral banding bibliography
Runcorn, S.K., 1966. Corals as paleontological clocks. Scientific America, 215: 26-33. Banding on certain corals evidently represents annual, monthly and daily growth. Ancient corals thus provide clues to the length of the year in past eras and to changes in the earth's rotation.
Observed Growth Patterns from:
Days (from rotation of the earth)
Months (from lunar cycle, moons orbit)
Years (from orbit of earth about the sun)
and from the same source
Neville, A.C., 1967. Daily growth layers in animals and plants. Biological Reviews, 42: 421-441. Daily growth layers are found in the structural parts of several biological systems. They provide a convenient experimental tool for researchers in several disciplines. ... Coral skeletons contain both annual as well as daily growth layers (Wells, 1963).
Corals only one of "several biological systems" with Observed Growth Patterns from:
Days (from rotation of the earth)
Years (from orbit of earth about the sun)
EFFECT OF TIDES ON EARTH'S ROTATION{Fixed url. - Adminnemooseus}A number of natural biological clocks lead us to the conclusion that Earth's spin rate is decreasing. For example, each day a growth mark is deposited on a certain type of coral in the reefs off the Bahamas. These growth marks are similar to the annual rings found in tree trunks, except that in the case of coral, the marks are made daily, in response to the day”night cycle of solar illumination. However, they also show yearly variations as the coral's growth responds to Earth's seasonal changes, allowing us to perceive annual cycles. Coral growing today shows 365 marks per year, but ancient coral shows many more growth deposits per year. Fossilized reefs that are five hundred million years old contain coral with nearly 400 deposits per year of growth.
Observed Growth Patterns from:
Days (from rotation of the earth)
Years (from orbit of earth about the sun)
Nice discussion of tides and the astronomical evidence that correlates with the biological. Of course that is evidence that extends into the 'deep' past,
millions of years ago, and we are only concerned with the immediate past -- what we agree on and 100 years before that.
What we see is a complete correlation of seasons and days within an annual cycle that holds solid for the complete record that we agree on. We see annual rings, we see daily rings, we even see evidence of moon cycles and tidal cycles that are consistent with
Observed Growth Patterns from:
Days (from rotation of the earth)
Fortnights (from tidal cycles, 2 max/min cycles per moon orbit)
Months (from lunar cycle, moons orbit)
Years (from orbit of earth about the sun)
evo conclusion: it was the same kind of time then as it is now.
simple conclusion: (stamps foot, pouts) no, it was totally different.
No. You just can't see the error. If you explained it better, I might be able to help. Here is the formula. Trees grew yearly rings (possibly with minimal exceptions due to climate, etc) since 4400 years ago. Any rings more than this grew in the former conditions. This means that we could have had the whole tree in a week, rings and all. See how the dating you used falls by the wayside?
This doesn't explain the correlations of those 4,500 year old tree rings with (a) seasonal patterns of growth, especially during the winter, and (b) radiometric dating from C-14, (c) annual rings from other sources, (d) daily rings within annual rings at 4,500 years ago.
quote:
(2) It demonstrates that these daily rings also occurred during the winter season, which you claim was night and your concept is void of any mechanism to "mimic" different rates of growth in a cyclic pattern during the dark hours.
This is a bit cryptic. I claim that night was winter, you say???? No, I never mentioned any such thing. But we can say the winters were different.
Please try to keep your own concept straight. If one (1) simple day = one (1) evo year then the growth ring relationship is {fast growth period} = simple daytime = evo summer, and {slow growth period} = simple nighttime = evo winter.
This is your concept, after all.
Now explain cyclic growth patterns during the nighttime in a system that needs sunlight to grow.
You could have tried to use the moon to provide such {evo daily} cyclic patterns during the {nighttime=winter}, changing it's orbit to be a 24 hour cycle instead of 29 +/- day cycle, but this doesn't explain the {evo daily} cyclic patterns during the {daytime=summer}, and you can't explain the cyclic patterns that match monthly moon orbits and fortnight tide fluctuations caused by monthly moon orbits.
evo conclusion: it was the same kind of time then as it is now.
simple conclusion: (stamps foot, pouts, jumps on hat) NO. no no no. it was totally different.
Notice something else:
For days to last long enough for a whole years worth of growth, you have to slow down the rotation of the earth in the past, while evidence shows the opposite trend -- rotation was faster in the past, and that this is totally consistent with all astronomical observations of our system.
Slowing days down does not affect the length of the year because that is dependent on the orbit of the earth around the sun, so you could have a day that is the equivalent of 365 +/- evo days and the length of the year would be totally unaffected -- the age in years of the data would still be valid.
A change in the length of a year in this imaginary past would not change the total increments of time that would otherwise go into measuring a year ... if an evo year is
365.24daysx24hoursx60minutesx60seconds = 31,556,736seconds
Then any interval of 31,556,736 seconds would still be measured as a year in evo time regardless of the rotation of the earth and the orbit of the earth about the sun. This is the time measured by any of the radioactive element techniques.
This is the time measured by the C-14 technique for the 4,500 year old tree ring within the still living (when cut down) 'Josua' Tree.
evo conclusion: it was the same kind of time then as it is now.
simple conclusion: (stamps foot, pouts, jumps on hat, plugs ears with fingers, shouts) NO. no no no. NO!!! it was totally different.
Finally, your basic concept -- that at some point in the past {everything} was totally different -- does not mean that only one possibility exists for that previous time. What it means is that every possibility that has ever been thought of and all those that have not yet been though of have an equal possibility. Last-Thursdayism is just as valid as the Norse mythology and any other religion or fantasy. Pick a book on any shelf in the science fiction\fantasy section ... gosh: it really could be!!! it's so simple!!!!
All you have done is swept all the evidence for anything off the table. {Total Denial of Everything} is not a basis for belief or science.
Enjoy.
This message has been edited by Adminnemooseus, 05-06-2006 01:27 PM
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