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Author Topic:   Discussion of the 3 thermodynamic laws
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 23 of 49 (151003)
10-19-2004 3:41 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by Loudmouth
08-27-2004 2:13 PM


Re: Minimum number of particles?
Violations of the 2cnd law can occur. As someone stated it is a statistical law. The fundamantal laws of physics are invariant under time reversal.

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 Message 17 by Loudmouth, posted 08-27-2004 2:13 PM Loudmouth has not replied

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 Message 24 by thgar, posted 11-18-2004 9:06 PM Peeper has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 25 of 49 (161378)
11-19-2004 2:04 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by thgar
11-18-2004 9:06 PM


Re: Minimum number of particles?
Consider the free expansion of a gas, initially trapped in a small volume, into a larger volume. At equilibrium the gas will uniformly occupy the larger volume. Now reverse the momentum of each gas particle and time and watch the film run backwards. The gas, uniformly distributed in the larger volume, now spontaneously evolves to occupy a smaller volume thus reducing the entropy.

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 Message 24 by thgar, posted 11-18-2004 9:06 PM thgar has replied

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 Message 26 by thgar, posted 11-26-2004 9:34 PM Peeper has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 27 of 49 (164527)
12-01-2004 9:41 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by thgar
11-26-2004 9:34 PM


Re: Minimum number of particles?
Peeper: Correct me if I am in error, but the smaller volume was never a closed system, and thus the 2nd law does not apply.
The entire volume is the closed system.
So what is happening inside that larger volume while the gas "spontaneously evolves to occupy a smaller volume?"
Gas is evacuating most of the volume to occupy a smaller portion.
If the film can be "run backwards," there may well be less entropy in the open subsystem (the smaller volume). But what of the whole closed system (the larger volume)?
The entropy of a system increases as the number of states increases. Since a state is defined in terms of momentum and position, as the volume occupied decreases so does the entropy.
There is another problem, what caused this reversal of momentum of each gas particle?
Time reversal.
And if it is a reversal of time directly, then how do we aviod breaking causality?
Surely, if time is reversed then so is causality, hence the time invariance of the fundamental laws.
If you do not adopt a statistical interpretation of the 2cnd law of thermodynamics, you will run into conflict with the fundamental laws of physics which are invariant under time reversal. If a gas can migrate from a small volume into a larger volume, then it is surely probable (though unlikely) that the gas can migrate from the larger volume into the smaller volume. According to kinetic theory, what would prevent it?

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 Message 26 by thgar, posted 11-26-2004 9:34 PM thgar has not replied

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 Message 29 by Buzsaw, posted 12-14-2004 8:57 AM Peeper has not replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 30 of 49 (168027)
12-14-2004 9:23 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by thgar
12-13-2004 10:02 PM


Re: Time reversal
Causality is the basis of science. A reversal of time does not imply a reversal of causality. Consider the one directional melting of an ice cube that is placed in a flame. When time is reversed the ice is reformed into the original cube. Why? What process says that it should freeze at all? Even if it does, what process governs the shape being restored to the original cube? Time reversals are a problem that cannot be swept aside.
No one is trying to "sweep aside" time reversal problems. There are no "time reversal problems". The laws of physics are fairly well understood. In fact, the law of equal probability which is the basis of statistical mechanics is a consequence of time reversal symmetry.

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 Message 28 by thgar, posted 12-13-2004 10:02 PM thgar has replied

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 Message 43 by thgar, posted 12-15-2004 9:34 PM Peeper has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 49 (168745)
12-15-2004 11:00 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by thgar
12-15-2004 9:34 PM


Re: Time reversal
I brought up the time reversal invariance of the fundamental laws because I thought it would help reinforce why the 2cnd law of thermodynamics could not be a rigorous law of nature, but only a statistical one. Unfortunately, probably through poor presentation, I feel I may have only muddled the issue. It is not that the 2cnd law can only be violated if someone were to build a magical machine which could reverse time.
The time invariance of the fundamental laws shows that any process which proceeds in one direction can also proceed in the reverse direction. This is in direct contradiction to a rigorous adherence of the 2cnd law.
A direct consequence of the time invariance of the laws of quantum mechanics is the principle of detailed balance which states that the transition probability for the transition
i->j is the same as the transition probability j->i.
To quote the respected physicist Herbert Callen (Thermodynamics and an Introduction to Thermostatistics p. 468)
The equal probabilities of permissible states for a closed system in equilibrium is a consequence of time reversal symmetry of the relevant quantum mechanical laws.
This means that the time reversal symmetry of the fundamental laws leads directly to the fundamental postulate of statistical mechanics, The Postulate of Equal a Priori Probability.
The 2cnd law of thermodynamics can be derived from this postulate.
Therefore, there is no time reversal problem.
How does one then reconcile the time reversal asymmetry of the 2cnd law with the time reversal symmetry of the fundamental laws? By realizing that the 2cnd law is only statistically correct.
Since it is only statistically correct, it means that it is possible for it to be violated (and yes I mean in the forward time direction type of way). I tried to give an example of this using the kinetic theory of gases, but you didn’t like it.
When contemplating whether the universe must die a heat death at maximal entropy the physicist Kerson Haung stated (Statistical Mechanics p.19)
Our universe is governed by molecular laws, whose invariance under time reversal denies the existence of any natural phenomenon that absolutely distinguishes between the past and future. The proper answer to the question we posed is no [about the heat death of the universe]. The reason is that the second law of thermodynamics cannot be a rigorous law of nature.

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 Message 43 by thgar, posted 12-15-2004 9:34 PM thgar has replied

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 Message 45 by thgar, posted 12-16-2004 7:08 PM Peeper has replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 49 (169149)
12-16-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by thgar
12-16-2004 7:08 PM


Re: Time reversal
I don’t understand what you mean by we can break not only the 2cnd law of thermodynamics but many.
Newton’s laws are time reversal invariant.
Maxwell’s equations are time reversal invariant.
Schrodinger’s equation is time reversal invariant.
The Dirac equation is time reversal invariant.
Special Relativity is time reversal invariant.
I admit I do not know enough about General Relativity to know if it is invariant.
The only law I know of that is not time reversal invariant is the 2cnd law of thermodynamics.
Do you not believe the 2cnd law is a statistical law?
If it is statistical then surely the possibility exists that it can be violated.
I stand by my statement that if time is reversed then so is causality. Why would momentum transfer be a one way street?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by thgar, posted 12-16-2004 7:08 PM thgar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by thgar, posted 12-17-2004 12:14 AM Peeper has replied
 Message 48 by Brad McFall, posted 12-17-2004 4:25 PM Peeper has not replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 49 (170597)
12-21-2004 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by thgar
12-17-2004 12:14 AM


Re: Time reversal
Finally causality: I disagree. Example: We have a pool table and 16 balls (number 1 to 15 and the cue ball as normal to many games). Causal relationship: In a shot, ball7 hits ball8 and that causes ball8 to roll across the table for some distance D.
This may be where our problem lies. You say ball 7 hits ball 8, but how do you know? I can easily think of a reference frame where ball 7 is at rest and ball 8 hits ball 7.
This is exactly what Newton (brilliant man that he was) was describing in his third law. There is no causality in a specific event.
Newton’s Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Causality only applies to space and time separated events. There is no causality for a single event. There is symmetry between pusher and pushee.
Instead let’s consider ball 7 hits ball 8, which travels for a distance and hits ball 9. Now we can assign causality. Reverse time and ball 9 hits ball 8, which hits ball 7; a reversal of causality.
The second part of your question has to do with the Boltzmann H theorm. I will get back to you on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by thgar, posted 12-17-2004 12:14 AM thgar has not replied

  
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