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Author Topic:   Discussion of the 3 thermodynamic laws
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 46 of 49 (169149)
12-16-2004 7:26 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by thgar
12-16-2004 7:08 PM


Re: Time reversal
I don’t understand what you mean by we can break not only the 2cnd law of thermodynamics but many.
Newton’s laws are time reversal invariant.
Maxwell’s equations are time reversal invariant.
Schrodinger’s equation is time reversal invariant.
The Dirac equation is time reversal invariant.
Special Relativity is time reversal invariant.
I admit I do not know enough about General Relativity to know if it is invariant.
The only law I know of that is not time reversal invariant is the 2cnd law of thermodynamics.
Do you not believe the 2cnd law is a statistical law?
If it is statistical then surely the possibility exists that it can be violated.
I stand by my statement that if time is reversed then so is causality. Why would momentum transfer be a one way street?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by thgar, posted 12-16-2004 7:08 PM thgar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by thgar, posted 12-17-2004 12:14 AM Peeper has replied
 Message 48 by Brad McFall, posted 12-17-2004 4:25 PM Peeper has not replied

  
thgar
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 49 (169206)
12-17-2004 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Peeper
12-16-2004 7:26 PM


Re: Time reversal
Although my research on this subject is only starting, I can say that gravity is to be sure time reversal invariant (thus I would tend to believe that general relativity is as well).
The word many was due to my incorrect assumption that I had a handle on this subject. I figured that like the second law of thermodynamics and friction, electromagnetism could be added to the list that were not time reversal invariant. Further reading has stated that I was wrong. I am not sure I have been convinced of it completely yet, but I'll go with the time reversal invariant electromagnetic force for now until I can read more on the subject.
Do I believe tbat the 2nd law is statistical? I am not sure. The laws are indeed more so than I thought even at my last posting (as I was wrong about electromagnetism) time reversal invariant. That is clear. On the other hand the universe is not! Also clear. Can the second law be seen as measure of this fact? If so I would not expect it not to be time reversal invariant. Finally what exactly do you mean by a statistical law (is it mode result, the mean result, is it random within some limited constraint) also what do you mean by violation of a statistical law?
Finally causality: I disagree. Example: We have a pool table and 16 balls (number 1 to 15 and the cue ball as normal to many games). Causal relationship: In a shot, ball7 hits ball8 and that causes ball8 to roll across the table for some distance D. This is a simple if, then statement. If ball7 hits ball8, then ball8 moves. It does not follow that if ball8 is moving, then ball7 hit ball8. It could have just as easily been any one of the other numbered balls or the cue ball.
This message has been edited by thgar, 12-17-2004 12:16 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Peeper, posted 12-16-2004 7:26 PM Peeper has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by Peeper, posted 12-21-2004 8:14 PM thgar has not replied

  
Brad McFall
Member (Idle past 5055 days)
Posts: 3428
From: Ithaca,NY, USA
Joined: 12-20-2001


Message 48 of 49 (169495)
12-17-2004 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Peeper
12-16-2004 7:26 PM


Re: Time reversal

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Peeper, posted 12-16-2004 7:26 PM Peeper has not replied

  
Peeper
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 49 (170597)
12-21-2004 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by thgar
12-17-2004 12:14 AM


Re: Time reversal
Finally causality: I disagree. Example: We have a pool table and 16 balls (number 1 to 15 and the cue ball as normal to many games). Causal relationship: In a shot, ball7 hits ball8 and that causes ball8 to roll across the table for some distance D.
This may be where our problem lies. You say ball 7 hits ball 8, but how do you know? I can easily think of a reference frame where ball 7 is at rest and ball 8 hits ball 7.
This is exactly what Newton (brilliant man that he was) was describing in his third law. There is no causality in a specific event.
Newton’s Third Law: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
Causality only applies to space and time separated events. There is no causality for a single event. There is symmetry between pusher and pushee.
Instead let’s consider ball 7 hits ball 8, which travels for a distance and hits ball 9. Now we can assign causality. Reverse time and ball 9 hits ball 8, which hits ball 7; a reversal of causality.
The second part of your question has to do with the Boltzmann H theorm. I will get back to you on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by thgar, posted 12-17-2004 12:14 AM thgar has not replied

  
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