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Author | Topic: Source of biblical flood water? | |||||||||||||||||||||||
simple  Inactive Member |
quote:Funny I never heard about some sky water bubble, except in some minor side interpretation. I believe it happened just like the bible says. quote: That some things were beyond what man can detect now, as 'natural' isn't saying much, we can't even detect spirits. But even within the 'natural, we have a wide range of choice as to what to believe, with the known facts. WE can believe the fountains of the deep opened, to give us most water on earth, or we can believe some 'cosmic snowballs' tossed it here over great imagined time, for example! http://www.xs4all.nl/~carlkop/komwater.htmlOf course I don't believe the 'evo oriented' have a good sense of time. As an example, the dino bones thread here was closed some time ago for "24 hours". Either that, or some evos simply have a perpensity to lose all track of the truth.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:No one claims any meteal dome anywhere, as you claim. Here are some opinions, none of which conceive some litereal metal. ""1:8 And God called the firmament g Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (g) That is, the region of the air, and all that is above us. "Genesis 1 - Geneva Study Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org "The creation of the earth's atmosphere was God's work on the second day of creation. Jamieson pointed out that the term "firmament" carries the meaning of "an expanse ... the beating out as of a plate of metal,"F5 suggesting the utility of a shield, an apt figure indeed when it is recalled that the earth would long ago have been destroyed by showers of meteorites (as upon the moon) had it not been for the protection of our atmosphere. " "The Hebrew word rakia, from raka, to spread out as the curtains of a tent or pavilion, simply signifies an expanse or space" Genesis 1 - Clarke's Commentary - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org "Expanse or Firmament (raqia). The key Hebrew word in Genesis 1:6 8a is raqia . It is translated firmament in the King James translation and expanse in most Hebrew dictionaries and modern translations. While its original meaning is uncertain, its root, raqa , means to spread out, beat out, or hammer as one would a malleable metal. It can also mean plate. This may explain why the Greek Septuagint translated raqia 16 out of 17 times with the Greek word stereoma , which means a firm or solid structure. The Latin Vulgate (A.D. 382) used the Latin term firmamentum, which also denotes solidness and firmness. So the King James translators in A.D. 1611 coined the word firmament. Today, firmament is usually used poetically to mean sky, atmosphere, or heavens. In modern Hebrew, raqia means sky or heavens. However, originally it probably meant something solid or firm that was spread out. Finally, if raqia were related to a canopy, it seems strange that other Hebrew words, often translated as canopy, were not used in Genesis: sukkah (Ps 18:11 and II Sam 22:12), chuppah (Is 4:5), and shaphrur (Jer 43:10). " In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - An Alternate Interpretation "Ancient extrabiblical writings, although not having the authority of biblical passages, also support the idea that earth was created with water under the crust. The First Book of Adam and Eve, states in verse 70:15 that God ... established the earth upon the waters. The Secrets of Enoch, another apocryphal book, also known as II Enoch, says in verse 47:5, The Lord ... fixed the earth upon the waters. [Rutherford H. Platt Jr., editor, The Forgotten Books of Eden (U.S.A.: Alpha House, 1927), pp. 50, 98.] II Esdras, which was part of most Christians’ Old Testaments until the Reformation, retells the same creation story found in Genesis 1. However, in II Esdras 6:41—42 the second and third days are described differently by Ezra. On the second day you created the angel of the firmament, and commanded him to make a dividing barrier between the waters, one part withdrawing upwards and the other remaining below. On the third day you ordered the waters to collect in a seventh part of the earth; the other six parts you made into dry land, ... [emphasis added] In other words, the earth’s waters immediately after the creation were divided into two parts, perhaps equal parts. One part was below a barrier, and the other part was above. The earth’s seas covered only 1/7th of the earth’s surface. Therefore, the volume of surface water was probably much less than the volume of today’s surface water which covers 70% of the earth. So considerable water would have been on the other side of the barrier much more than any canopy could have held. However, subterranean chambers could have held that amount. Most definitive is the word barrier. It hardly seems to describe the atmosphere, sky, heaven, or outer space. It aptly describes the earth’s crust that vertically divided the earth’s liquid water. II Esdras 16:58 reinforces this: He has shut up the sea in the midst of the waters, and by His command He has hung the earth upon the water. . A few people claim that raqia is the universe, and the waters above the expanse (raqia) surround the universe. This places all the heavenly bodies in the expanse of the heavens, which agrees with Genesis 1:14 17. [This was first proposed by Harold L. Armstrong, The Expanding Universe and Creation, Repossess the Land (Minneapolis, Minnesota: Bible Science Association, 1979), pp. 22 27.] Surrounding the universe with water assumes the universe is finite, when its size may be infinite, or it may have an even more exotic geometry. Let us assume the edge of the universe is only 10 billion light-years away, and absolutely nothing is outside it, even empty space. Surrounding the universe with as much water as the earth contains (1.43 x 1024 grams), as just one example, would spread one gram over every 3 x 1022 square miles or place adjacent water molecules one mile apart! Pure water in the near vacuum of space would clearly be water vapor, not the liquid water the Bible describes above the expanse. What purpose would that water fulfill? Certainly, it would have played no role in the flood and could not be detected today. Why then mention it in the brief first chapter of Genesis?"In the Beginning: Compelling Evidence for Creation and the Flood - Did the flood water come from above or below Earth’s surface? So there are different ideas on the precise meaning, none of which agree with you, aparently?!
quote:Sorry, throwing out that those who don't agree with you are heretics is just plain cheap and knavish.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:Well, apparently you believe some men actually thought we lived in a dome surrounded earth? I don't buy it, unless, perhaps, it was some pitiful pagan perception. Believers, I don't think would have swallowed that one any more than some little life form magically appearing for no apparent rhyme or reason, only to spring forth all life on earth eventually! Nobody does, I think you may be right there, and you haven't shown even the demented may have in history, so far either-just an absurd literist rendition of some translated word in the bible, which I already showed had no bearing on other than your imagination of how things were. quote:The biblically documented age of creation, and the earth is cross checked, and verified by more than an evo preference of how to interpret some word in the bible! Jesus refered, for example to the time of the garden, and also to the flood. The mystery comes when one uses physical only evidences, to try to date things beyond their actual creation! When we add in the spiritual component, it changes everything, and the mystery becomes how men could have actually believe in granny, and the little creator speck!
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote: I could give my opinion, but I don't really know. As I understand it, there are at least 2 big trains of interpretation on this point. One has it that water might be outside the edge of the universe, the other, like Walt Brown's book leans to, where the barrier was between the lower earth water and the surface water. But it is a quite in depth subject. I think there was the canopy idea, which also was well accepted, and I think some had it kinda being part of this whole firmament thing? So there is more than one cut and dry legitimate interpertation.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:Looking at the guy's right hand, I wonder if he had something else on his mind? quote:? Oh, and where are these several references found, you speak of? I know of one in Job, where an extinct water dino was spoken of, but go ahead, prove you know what you are talking about, and list the several right here! 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 quote:Oh right. The flat circle bit. Most circles I have seen were round. But do tell, you know of some flat ones? quote:Oh? Then where did Enoch walk? Where did Elijah go on a flaming chariot? How did God make His rounds of the entire universe, from one end to the other? etc, etc, etc. quote:Witout God, the concept becomes as silly as stuffing the entire universe into a ball point pen tip. quote:Look a little further. 'By Him were all things created, and without Him was nothing made, that was made'. No they didn't make their little selves. quote:Nonsense. The bible doesn't talk of a God on a hot tin roof. quote:It tells us, within a narrow range of possible opinion, when Adam lived. quote:It doesn't matter. Whether Jesus was born in 4 BC or 1 AD, the general age of the earth is not affected to ant substansial degree! Whether it was 5765, or 6000 ish, it does not matter a hill of beans. The issue here is millions and billions of years. Don't think you can cloud the matter. quote:Creation to within a few centuries is cut and dry. Which hangs out evo dreamed up billions of years out to dry!
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:When I say I don't know, I don't mean I don't know it's not something riddiculous like you seem to like to try to portray quote:Here again, you are negatively simplifying. Like someone saying we will play harps and float on clouds all day in heaven. I would go with either Walt's book, where it leans to the barrier being from waters under the earth from waters on the surface, or I could even see a possibility of water outside the universe, like his book thinks is so impossible. But some silly skydome, sorry, it is an unflattering, negetive, base interpretation attempt. quote:I already linked to a page or two where he fleshed that out. He presented a bonide case for that veiwpoint. quote:Impossible under today's world, maybe. Anyhow, I can live with the barrier or firmament between the waters being either of the 2 I touched on. quote:Heaven is used a few different ways in Genesis. quote:It's what you chose to take it as meaning. It is a matter of not being cut and dry. There are different legitamate biblical opinions on the matter. This word means that, but comes from this, which sometimes can mean something else, especially when used wit...etc. Hey, these guys really dig it all up, and they do not all agree with you here, you will have to live with that. quote:Says you. People who propose some magically appearing first lifeform, or the universe fitting in a ball point pen tip sized soup, at one time, or not understanding the spiritual, when combined to the physical can change everything, are perverted, actually. As far as not fitting with either, bible or science, a lot of these things fit pretty good. Sometimes it is simply a matter of stopping trying make them not fit.
quote:Not merely a science book would be more accurate. It also tells of the spiritual and it's effects on the physical, in the past, and in the present, and in the future. It is not limited to the box. quote:My point also. Apply this to so called science of the physical only, and you may see it in a new light.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:I can guarantee they had that on their minds. But as far as whether they had some notion of a metal skydome or something, it doesn't matter. At best it would have been based loosely on the hand me down tidbits they got from the children of the Living God, at worst, well, a pagan dream. quote:No I was thinking of a fire breathing dragon dino type thing. I didn't look it up, and I see you did find several references to our little beastie here. quote:No. The beast in Revelation, or Daniel is a horse of a different color, not by any stretch a leviathan. But that's a long story, and wouldn't mix with a science forum. quote:Fair enough. So when we think of those ocean swimming platawhateverasurasus', we should remember they are not dinos. You know the kind some people think Nelly may have been? quote:Oh, of course, make it one dimensional, and it looks flat. I wonder if our canopy may have been like a ring of saturn, only real thin? Anyhow, yes we could use an in box type interpretation to some of these things, and lose a few dimensions, if we are into that, what about it? quote:Here we go again with box interpretations! He is able and known to have been in many places, at once, even! quote:Well, there you go, it couldn't have been a metal skydome, or we'd see him pasted up there, with a telescope! quote:Don't keep regressing into one dimensionality on me here, I don't live in the box! There are other books in the bible, you know! Now I know it might be easier to try to poke fun, if we could only have Genesis, but we got plenty more, that was just the beginning. quote:I haven't tried it with one dimensional glasses on, but, actually, I woudn't want to, science would be at least as interesting! quote:I understood there were only a few centuries one could play with there. Who claims 10,000 years, and tries to use the bible as well? If they do, they are out to lunch. quote:So if it says "Jesus rose" it means He is a flower? I deal with what it really says and means, in correlation, and balance with all else.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:We'll have to disagree, as I never heard such a whopper, and I heard quite a few weird interpretations. quote:Right, a barrier, the question is which water from which water, in case you missed that. quote:What is that supposed to mean? I've seen rocks in a river, and they don't get any more 'saturated' in a few months than rocks on dry ground. Pull them out of the river, even a deep river, and you can walk on it fine! quote:The heavens meant a few different things, depending on the word translated. If water did come down from deep space, what kind of difficulty do you think this would present to the Orchestrator? quote:A small thin canopy would present no such problem, if the bulk of the water was from beneath. quote:In a vision or dream, who cares where the rungs end? Heaven can be, I think, if I remember right, the heaven of heavens, where God usually hangs out, the stars, and sky, or, the atmosphere where birds fly. Walt's book pointed out a few ideas for 'firmament' as well. Basically we do not know exactly, even if you like to claim you do. quote:Then, if you were right, they came in from deep space, I take your decrees of "only legitimate" with a large pinch of salt. quote:Before it becomes science, things were often thought of as magic. For the limited science of the box of physical only, it would appear as such, since they are so far behind the 8 ball, on the spirit world. For God, what you call magic is routine, and natural. quote:I always can tell when someone thinks they know a lot, how little they actually know! quote:Lining up with the real world is good. Comparing scripture with scripture is good. Thinking the bible has us in some metal dome cage is bad. quote:When so called science is a belief based faith, I don't worry about justifying it, only slapping it into line when it gets to old age dreams and extrapolations of present physical processes into imaginary dates that disagree with the bible's account of when Adam really lived!
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:No, Adam believed in the One God, as did Noah, etc. But I think the early egyptians may have knew a few things, and may have modeled the pyramids after heaven. The golden city, many feel is mountain shaped, or pyramidical. quote:Yes, but as we saw later, they were mickey mouse, compared to the real deal! Plagues, red sea swallowing their soldiers, etc. quote:Dragons, OK. But you again plunge needlessly into the mystic in assigning them 7 heads, trying to tie it into some prophesy. The beast in revelations was symbolic of something, so it was represented that way. Only in your mind is there any link at all. quote:These guys shut down posts for things like that. So better to leave it. quote:They no more encountered a metal skydome than the nasa people do when they travel there. Elijah went to heaven. quote:He's a spirit, so don't hold your breath quote:I can discuss a kitchen in the hardware store, as well as at a kitchen table, and I might even get a fresh perspective on it. quote:Just because I saw no metal sky dome in there doesn't mean I never looked at the book. quote:So getting bogged down in silly locked in, unmatched to the real world, or the rest of the bible -interpretations are your idea of a fun time. Hey, it confused the fundy in the room. Well, I might suggest the poor guy was already well on his way to confusion going to such a strange class, where the object of the teacher was to muddle, and confuse with some dogmatic, unreasonable, time wasting ultra literalist interpretaion.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:You have a peculiar view of the flood. quote:Ever hear of something called a tropical, and semi tropical pre flood world? quote:Maybe you should miss it as well. quote: Men grew very wicked, He had to clear the slate.
quote:Not to me, it indicates a sky. quote:Your version, I'm afraid, sounds like it. quote:I don't reject science. Only realize it has chosen the box, and treat it accordingly, as a very limited, yet valid area of study. quote:If the sun moon and stars are in this thing, I'sd say you have to go pretty far out, to get to it's border. I used the short term, deep space, perhaps for your sensibilities, I should have said, very very deep space, deep as one could go, and beyond. quote:It would be wise to acknowledge all aspects of reality, spiritual, and physical. quote:Why? Who else just said they know a lot about science, and the bible? quote:Read Usher's stuff. As Walt Brown's book pointed out, there is some room for opinion there, but not much. Depending on when someone actually left a certain city, etc. It is in the vicinity of 6000 years. quote:On the contrary, physical evidence is only part of the evidence, and even there assumptions are rife. On the other hand the faith in Christ, and the ressurection was actually witnessed by many. His book also is alive, and it works, and has been felt directly by untold millions, with innumerable proofs. Where did the first lifeform come from in evolution's tale? No witnesses there! They don't even know where it supposedly came from. Very faith based!
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:It wouldn't matter much if they were lifted up near floodtime. Rapid plate movement. Why not? quote:What if it was only 1%? As I say with the bulk coming from in the earth. quote:It was your insistance on hidden meanings in verses I was trying to shake, not the bible. quote:Like He said. quote:Which parts? Oh no, don't tell me, your perceived metal dome stuff? quote:Depends on which people, like today. God's people? Just the way He explained it to them, as they could then handle it, and as we can handle it. quote:Science of the box can't forget what they don't know. I need not forget either, but understand the spiritual to be the more populous, and important of the 2. I also understand some things can't be understood without both, leaving the poor box folks in the dark about a lot of important things! quote:It does, with a little detective work, as Usher did, and came darn close. quote:The bible is full of lawbreakers! Jesus broke your laws rising from the dead, and walking on water, and feeding many thousands with a few morsels of food, etc. As did pretty well anybody who was anybody in the book, especially God! Yet they all lived in our natural world. The laws of the physical are mere guidelines for christians! Often run roughshod over! We are not limited to their decay, and death by any stretch of the imagination! We are not of the box, but we can use the pitiful science of the box as far as it goes! They however, can't even see our spiritual dimension, let alone use it. quote:He wrote m all! If you want His words, look for a red letter edition, they are also pretty numerous. quote:I mean it actually works now, and isn't dead words. It saves people, heals people, and the whole 9 yards. It's effects are, and were, and always will be well known. quote:Yes by those who knew Him, and many gave their life to back it up. Also, they performed many miracles. quote:Jesus. So, who witnessed granny? quote:I don't believe you.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:Ha. That's a new angle.
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:How fast they now rise is of no real value in a flood year scenario. Now what kind of evidence would it leave, exactly? quote:So a ring, or canopy around earth, even if the atmosphere was different, would have been fatal to life here, even if it was very very small, you say? quote:I just looked at it again, and I don'r see anything in black and white saying what you said about the waters coming down was meaning creation was undone, or whatever you said? As for the barrier bit, heres a few snips "And divided the waters which were under the firmament from thewaters which were above the firmament; the lower part of it, the atmosphere above, which are the clouds full of water, from whence rain descends upon the earth; and which divided between them and those that were left on the earth, and so under it, not yet gathered into one place; as it now does between the clouds of heaven and the waters of the sea. Though Mr. Gregory is of opinion, that an abyss of waters above the most supreme orb is here meant; or a great deep between the heavens and the heaven of heavens, where, as in storehouses, the depth is laid up; and God has his treasures of snow, hail, and rain, and from whence he brought out the waters which drowned the world at the universal deluge. Others suppose the waters above to be the crystalline heaven, which for its clearness resembles water; and which Milton calls the "crystalline ocean". " Genesis 1 - Gill's Exposition of the Whole Bible - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org " 6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. We have here an account of the second day's work, the creation of the firmament, in which observe, 1. The command of God concerning it: Let there be a firmament, an expansion, so the Hebrew word signifies, like a sheet spread, or a curtain drawn out. This includes all that is visible above the earth, between it and the third heavens: the air, its higher, middle, and lower, regions--the celestial globe, and all the spheres and orbs of light above: it reaches as high as the place where the stars are fixed, for that is called here the firmament of heaven (Genesis 1:14,15), and as low as the place where the birds fly, for that also is called the firmament of heaven, Genesis 1:20. When God had made the light, he appointed the air to be the receptacle and vehicle of its beams, and to be as a medium of communication between the invisible and the visible world; for, though between heaven and earth there is an inconceivable distance, yet there is not an impassable gulf, as there is between heaven and hell. This firmament is not a wall of partition, but a way of intercourse. See Job 26:7,37:18,Ps+104:3,Am+9:6. 2. The creation of it. Lest it should seem as if God had only commanded it to be done, and some one else had done it, he adds, And God made the firmament. What God requires of us he himself works in us, or it is not done. He that commands faith, holiness, and love, " Comprehensive Overview of the Bible Commentaries available FREELY on StudyLight.org!So dry up with the cut and dry bit will ya? quote:They both have evidence, box science simply accepts only box evidence! quote: How many have you heard of lately that had nails put in their hands and feet, were severely beaten, and a spear in their side to boot, as wee? How many were not in a nice hospital, but were buried already? How many had angels free them from that grave, which were seen as well by others? How many of these light at the end of the tunnel folks also flew to the sky as well, again in front of many witnesses? Ha. Never have I heard such a blasphemous, and sickly, ridiculous excuse for an attempted explanation for history's greatest event, and for which we still use BC, and AD a lot, to refer to it!
quote:No, because of it. But for people of the box, they are laws, for people of the book, mere guidelines. quote:God mostly used men as pens. Where in any gospel does it say these were His last words? He still speaks! Now Mark may have mentioned, in his account some things that he remembered, or felt inspired about, where maybe Luke would have not bothered with one particular thing Mark wrote down. There is something called the harmony of the gospels, in case this is news to you, where they correlate things. quote:Something for every taste! quote:'By Him were all things made, and without Him was not anything made that was made'! 'Before Abraham was, I Am'! He just came down here in a body to save all mankind around that time.
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simple  Inactive Member |
I just posted a few snips where the silly literal metal bit is shown to be a minor opinion, actually I never read one commentary where anyone refered to it in any other way than saying, "as" or "like" hammering out metal. No one else apparently thinks it was some literal metal up there. And his meaning of creation being undone or whatever was what I felt was hidden, cause I can't find it still!
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simple  Inactive Member |
quote:I don't generally look where they can't spell God. Or where they don't know His name, Jesus. I've looked at christian commentaries, and they don't think there is metal up there, only it is stretched, or hardened like one works metal. In other words, it is a silly point.
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