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Author | Topic: infinite space | |||||||||||||||||||||||
crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
At this forum? No.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The main thing you have to realive about infinitely small is that the mass of any given object can shrink for an infinite amount of time without ever reaching a mass of 0. This would be true except that we don't live in a classical universe. We live in a univers governed by the uncertainty principle, and under that condition, there comes a point where you can no longer discern a difference between a mass of 0 and a sufficiently small non-zero mass. So, no, you can't just keep shrinking, because you come to a point where you can't tell the difference between shrinking any further and disappearing. In our universe, if you divide by 2 long enough, you do get to zero - or so close as to be unable to tell the difference. There's a fundamental, bottom-end resolution to the universe, defined by uncertainty. At the upper end the universe is bounded by its volume and duration. If the universe had bounds at both ends, how can it be said to be infinite?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
What evidence do you think suggests conclusively that the size of the universe is finite? Well, I would assume that a universe of infinite size would contain infinite mass. Therefore I don't see how a universe of infinite mass could expand at all - it should immedately collapse. Could it even expand? There just seem to be too many contradictions for an infinite universe.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
An infinite universe would have infinite mass, but that mass would be distributed throughout an infinite volume of space. So the average density (plus initial conditions) will determine if the universe will collapse. Ok, so you get infinity over infinity. That's one, isn't it? ...so what does that mean? Is "one" enough?
Now, what are some of the other so called contradictions associated with infinite space? Well, why would the universe be infinite in every direction in space, but only infinite in one direction of time (the future)? That seems weird to me. Just to be sure, we're clear on the fact that there's no way to tell who's right here, right? There's no conclusive evidence for either an infinite or finite universe. So, does it really matter? Honestly the reason I believe in a finite universe is that it just seems, I dunno, simpler. Also I don't believe that infinity can physically exist, but that's just me, I suspect.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
No offence, but what I think you are forgetting or not realizing is that just because something is undetectable by us doesn't mean it doesn't exist. No, with quantum uncertainty, that's exactly what it means. Uncertainty isn't a failure on our part to build sensitive enough instruments. It's not an engineering problem. It's a fundamental constraint on matter in the universe. We know that because apparently even the universe can't keep track - the virtual particles (which we know exist) that flit in and out of existence are evidence of this.
And they are infinite in an infinite amount of ways. AS ARE YOU AND I. There is no part of me that is infinite. I am finite in total, and so are you.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I realize that there is already an answer to the paradox that involves calculus, but I am looking for a less mathematical solution. I think it's simpler than that. All you have to do is realize that for each decending half-distance, you cover it in half the time, if you're moving at constant speed. Eventually you're stuck at an infinitely small distance from your destination, but you cover it instantaneously. But, if you feel quantum mechanics is a better solution for you, well, they're both right.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Because we would be shrinking at the same rate as everything else, we could theoretically shrink infinitely without even relizing anything was happening.(THEORETICALLY!) No, because we'd observe everything moving away from everything else - not just distant galaxies, ala Hubble, but all matter in the universe, like our component atoms, would appear to move away from everything else as they shrunk towards their centers.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
There's also no guarantee that time did in fact have a beginning. Well, we know the duration of the universe isn't infinite in the past. If it were, the night sky would be infinitely bright from the light of an infinite number of stars, which would have had an infinite amount of time to suffuse the universe. Or so it's been explained to me.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Well, sure. And our universe could be a bubble in a vast cosmic bathtub. But there's no way to tell, is there? The minute we start talking about what's outside our boundaries of space, we've left the purview of science, and we can make up whatever we like.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
The atoms would move towards each other at the same rate at which they are shrinking. Why would they do such a thing? And how would they know what direction to move?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Eventually scientists will learn to except that all particles are made up of other particles, which are made up of other particles, which are made up of other particles, infinitely. (at least in my opinion) Why would they accpet such a thing, when it's pretty clearly contradicted by the fact that we can explain all of the particles with string theory?
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Have you ever asked yourself what those strings might be made of? They're vibrating spatial membranes. They're not made of anything different than what empty space is made of. The problem with your ideas is that infinitely recursing matter doesn't explain why there's matter at all. String theory explains that empty space and matter are really different forms of the same thing.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
What are the membranes made of? Spacetime. (BTW when you're replying to a message, click over on the left where it says "*UBB Code is ON" and you can see all the codes. The one I use to make the blue boxes is the qs code.)
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
Which in my opinion is infinite. Maybe there's an infinite amount of it, but each string is only a finite amount of spacetime.
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crashfrog Member (Idle past 1496 days) Posts: 19762 From: Silver Spring, MD Joined: |
I agree, each string may be a finite amount of spacetime, but I believe that there are an infinite amount of cosmic string of infinitely varying size weaving a web of infinity. Well, if you want to substitute mystical mumbo-jumbo for rational inquiry about the universe, that's your perogative. I don't see any difference between that and creationism, personally.
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