EvC Forum: Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists

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Topic: Ignorant Creationists vs. Knowledgeable Evolutionists

Parasomnium

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Message 81 of 196 (158272)
11-11-2004 4:07 AM

Reply to: Message 77 by Buzsaw
11-11-2004 12:41 AM

Re: Where is the conflict?

buzsaw writes:

What are the odds, Buz? Please show your math.

The odds are great, imo, [...]

Your opinion is based on your incredulity, it seems.

buzsaw writes:

[...] and I'm not doing the math.

You disqualify yourself by making statements about the odds and not substantiating them with mathematical evidence.

buzsaw writes:

What do you mean by "precisely" and "complete"?

Look the words up. That's specifically what I mean.

No problem:

Merriam-Webster writes:

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
Main Entry: precise
Pronunciation: pri-'sIs
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French precis, from Latin praecisus, past participle of praecidere to cut off, from prae- + caedere to cut
1 : exactly or sharply defined or stated
2 : minutely exact
3 : strictly conforming to a pattern, standard, or convention
4 : distinguished from every other
synonym see CORRECT
- preciseness noun

Which of these four is it, Buz?

Merriam-Webster writes:

3 entries found for complete.
[...]
complete[1,adjective]
complete[2,transitive verb]
complete fertilizer

Main Entry: 1 complete
Pronunciation: k&m-'plEt
Function: adjective
Inflected Form(s): completer; -est
Etymology: Middle English complet, from Middle French, from Latin completus, from past participle of complEre
1 a : having all necessary parts, elements, or steps b : having all four sets of floral organs c of a subject or predicate : including modifiers, complements , or objects
2 : brought to an end : CONCLUDED
3 : highly proficient
4 a : fully carried out : THOROUGH b : TOTAL, ABSOLUTE
5 of insect metamorphosis : characterized by the occurrence of a pupal stage between the motile immature stages and the adult -- compare INCOMPLETE 1b
6 of a metric space : having the property that every Cauchy sequence of elements converges to a limit in the space
synonym see FULL
- completely adverb
- completeness noun
- completive /-'plE-tiv/ adjective
- complete with : made complete by the inclusion of

Which of these six is it, Buz? Or did you mean one of the other two entries?

Let me try another approach.

In what sense is "it all" precise? Is there a blueprint somewhere that precisely describes the chaos that nature is?

In what sense is it complete? Are humans complete? Some animals can fly. Some animals can live under water. Human can't do either of those. It could be argued that humans are not complete. What do you mean?

buzsaw writes:

schrafinator writes:

Please show your work.

Please move on. I stated an opinion and have no time nor desire to be drawn into a side trip science debate with you on every little thing I say.

Schrafinator follows you around because you are constantly being imprecise and incomplete. When you off-handedly dismiss her in your usual derogatory way, you're just showing more of that imprecision and incompleteness that so characterises your posts on this forum. And it doesn't work anyway.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

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	Message 77 by Buzsaw, posted 11-11-2004 12:41 AM		Buzsaw has not replied

Parasomnium

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Message 85 of 196 (158279)
11-11-2004 5:06 AM

Reply to: Message 84 by contracycle
11-11-2004 4:44 AM

Re: Literalism

contracycle writes:

It should be abundantly clear that iof the stories are not true, then the message cannot be true either.

Suppose someone says: "All people are selfish bastards". Someone else, wanting to counter this opinion, starts telling a true story about a hero who rescues a helpless victim from a perilous situation, putting himself in grave danger. The message of that example is of course: "No, you're wrong. Not all people are selfish bastards". If the story can be verified, the message is obviously true.

Now suppose that the person telling the story gets some of the details mixed-up and inadvertently makes it into something that obviously cannot have happened the way it is told. It is no longer a true story. Does that mean that the message is no longer true?

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

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	Message 84 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 4:44 AM		contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 86 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 5:23 AM		Parasomnium has replied

Parasomnium

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Joined: 07-15-2003

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Message 88 of 196 (158285)
11-11-2004 5:55 AM

Reply to: Message 86 by contracycle
11-11-2004 5:23 AM

Re: Literalism

contracycle writes:

It certainly is the case that making an incoherent, impossible argument destroys the credibility of that argument.

Though it may diminish (or "destroy", as you so vehemently put it) the credibility of the argument, its incoherence or impossibility does not alter the facts. In this case, the fact is that there is at least one person who is not a selfish bastard, and that's the basis for the crippled story. The message is about the fact. The message remains true.

contracycle writes:

Further your use of "true" is a bit suspect.

I used 'true' in the exact same way you did.

contracycle writes:

Is what true, the intended claim or the actually articulated claim? The actually articulated claim is clearly not true - and because it is not true it cannot convey the message it intends to convey.

If your mother told you that your nose grows longer if you lie, would you not get the message? (In case you don't, it is: "You should not lie")

contracycle writes:

The "message" itself might remain true in some external way, but this is irrelevant to the local conversation actually occuring in real space becuase that message was never expressed.

That's why most of us have acquired the technique of "reading between the lines".

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 86 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 5:23 AM		contracycle has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 89 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 9:34 AM	Parasomnium has replied
	Message 96 by coffee_addict, posted 11-11-2004 2:19 PM	Parasomnium has not replied

Parasomnium

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Posts: 2224

Joined: 07-15-2003

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Message 92 of 196 (158356)
11-11-2004 10:31 AM

Reply to: Message 89 by contracycle
11-11-2004 9:34 AM

Re: Literalism

contracycle writes:

If a speaker wished to demonstrate that there are unselfish people in the world, but their statement contains no comprehensible evidence in this regard, then it can and should be rejected. The only basis I would have for not rejecting it - seeing as it communicated no information - would have to be sympathy of some sort for the speaker.

If you put it that way, I can only agree. But the gist of my argument was that some stories, although incorrect and untrue in themselves, can still convey the message intended, at least if the listener does not affect complete ignorance of the world or his own moral instincts. You kept to a strictly logical interpretation of the matter, which I can appreciate, because I tend to do that myself in most cases. But in this case I was trying to adopt a more practical stance, where inate morality and some knowledge of the world come into play. I believe I should have made that clearer.

contracycle writes:

Parasomnium writes:

If your mother told you that your nose grows longer if you lie, would you not get the message?

Then my mother would likely be conducting a wholly different exercise, one in which her statements refers to information I already have - the story of Pinnochio. These are nothing alike; knowing that Pinocchio was cursed in this way means I am able to deduce the reference.

This is what I meant: you have some world knowledge and can place your mother's statement in the appropriate context. Basically, the situation is the same as with the hero story: the story is untrue, but the message is conveyed. (In view of what I said above, there's no need to react to this, lest we circle around each other forever. It's just another illustration of my point.)

contracycle writes:

And if I didn't know the story of Pinnochio, then the signal I receive would carry no information, mean nothing, and I would go "huh?". After all, I can test whether my nose will grow if I lie, and therefore decide whether my mother is bonkers.

Or use your common sense and conclude that your mother is sending out the message that you should not lie. (Yet another illustration.)

contracycle writes:

Parasomnium writes:

That's why most of us have acquired the technique of "reading between the lines".

... resulting in many Americans believing that Saddam was sheltering the 9/11 hijackers.

Which comes as no surprise of course, if you take into account that an alarmingly large number of Americans will believe anything...

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

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	Message 89 by contracycle, posted 11-11-2004 9:34 AM		contracycle has not replied

Parasomnium

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Posts: 2224

Joined: 07-15-2003

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Message 103 of 196 (158648)
11-12-2004 8:20 AM

Reply to: Message 98 by kc8rdb
11-11-2004 2:30 PM

Brad McFall is EvC's resident oracle. In Greek mythology, as you may know, the Oracle was a great source of wisdom. Brad seems to be just that. But the Oracle of Greek mythology was also mostly incomprehensible. Brad is that too. However, unlike other people who produce what seems to be gibberish, Brad is given a lot of leeway by all parties concerned, possibly due to the fact that Brad just may be a genius of unknown magnitude.

This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 11-12-2004 09:04 AM

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
	Message 98 by kc8rdb, posted 11-11-2004 2:30 PM		kc8rdb has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 112 by lfen, posted 11-12-2004 9:06 PM		Parasomnium has not replied

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