EvC Forum: Evolution != Atheism (re: the Rejection of Theism in Evolution)

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Topic: Evolution != Atheism (re: the Rejection of Theism in Evolution)

Tal

Member (Idle past 5707 days)

Posts: 1140

From: Fort Bragg, NC

Joined: 12-29-2004

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Message 76 of 178 (175002)
01-08-2005 9:41 AM

Reply to: Message 73 by PurpleYouko
01-07-2005 9:23 AM

Re: Evolution vs. creation

There are NO logical and scientifically backed arguements for the existence of God. Even (most) beleivers will agree that they cannot prove his existence. It is a matter of Faith, not scientific proof.

May I make an analogy?

For the past couple of days I've been debating whether the idea that the TOE and the Law(s) of (insert well known law here ie gravity/thermodynamics) are on equal footing when it comes the degree that each has been proven. I say they are not, others say they are.

Now, the people that say they are site a mountain of evidence that proves the TOE, or at least is the best running theory until it is improved upon or proved to be false.

Nonetheless, here is some of the mountain of evidence:

1. Radio Carbon Dating
2. Fossil Record
3. Potasium/Argon nuclear dating (very old rocks)
4. The measured movements of tectonic plates and continental drift
5. Wildlife evolution in places like the golapegos
6. Some bacterial experiment where single cells evolved to form a more complex community (didn't get much into that one, but those familiar know what I'm talking about)

Now, can we observe evolution taking place right now? No, (please no cemantics here) because it takes millions of years for things to evolve from one species to another. We weren't there when evolution happened. We can't see evolution happening. We can't touch evolution. We can't recreate evolution in a lab. But we've amassed this wealth of evidences that supports the TOE. Therefore, evolution happened.

Now, what if I said there is a mountain of evidence to support the idea of God?

1. Personal accounts of specifically answered prayer.
2. Divine protection in combat against all odds.
3. Accurate "prophecies" (Isreal becoming a nation again) that number in the hundreds.
4. Supernatural events that have happened to me and others (astral projection anyone?)
5. Bible Codes (subject to debate, but it does perk the interest)
6. Old Testament laws that deal with bacteria.
7. Old Testament accounts of accurate astronomy (Pleadies/Orion).

We weren't there when God created everything. We can't see God. We can't touch God. We can't recreate God in a lab. But we have massed a mountain of evidence to support that God exists. Therefore, according you guys that say evolution absolutey happened based on the mountain of evidence for it, even though you didn't see it happen; I say God absolutely exists based on the mountain of evidence for Him, even though I haven't seen Him.

And we debate the evidence for each. Are those prophecies really that accuarate, or a load of crap? Does the fossil record really show the evolution over time from, or is that just how they fell into place during the flood?

And we poke holes in each others evidences.

Ok...I have no idea where I'm going with this. I'm heading to the hooch.

This message has been edited by Tal, 01-08-2005 09:43 AM

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
	Message 73 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-07-2005 9:23 AM		PurpleYouko has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 77 by Jazzns, posted 01-08-2005 9:55 AM	Tal has replied
	Message 80 by crashfrog, posted 01-08-2005 11:09 AM	Tal has not replied
	Message 81 by jar, posted 01-08-2005 11:18 AM	Tal has not replied
	Message 82 by Rrhain, posted 01-08-2005 3:54 PM	Tal has replied
	Message 83 by sidelined, posted 01-08-2005 6:37 PM	Tal has not replied
	Message 85 by PurpleYouko, posted 01-09-2005 2:03 PM	Tal has not replied

Tal

Member (Idle past 5707 days)

Posts: 1140

From: Fort Bragg, NC

Joined: 12-29-2004

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Message 78 of 178 (175009)
01-08-2005 10:04 AM

Reply to: Message 77 by Jazzns
01-08-2005 9:55 AM

Re: Drift

I believe my post was relevant and contributed to the topic.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
	Message 77 by Jazzns, posted 01-08-2005 9:55 AM		Jazzns has not replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 79 by Quetzal, posted 01-08-2005 11:07 AM		Tal has not replied

Tal

Member (Idle past 5707 days)

Posts: 1140

From: Fort Bragg, NC

Joined: 12-29-2004

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Message 84 of 178 (175189)
01-09-2005 10:12 AM

I will try to get to each of your replies. However, if I answered one of sidelines questions/issues in a reply to Rraihn, then I won't answer it again for sideline.

I'll start with a response to Rrhain when I get back, as it appears he put the most time into a reply.

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

Replies to this message:
	Message 86 by Silent H, posted 01-09-2005 2:11 PM		Tal has not replied

Tal

Member (Idle past 5707 days)

Posts: 1140

From: Fort Bragg, NC

Joined: 12-29-2004

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Message 88 of 178 (175796)
01-11-2005 9:20 AM

Reply to: Message 82 by Rrhain
01-08-2005 3:54 PM

Re: Evolution vs. creation

Disproven. Every single large text contains this as a mathematical artifact. Assassinations Foretold in Moby Dick

I couldn't get your Moby Dick link to open, however I'm fairly certain it is out of date. Can you provide me another link so we can see what it says and what the odds of the statement appearing in random text?

Here are some odds of the codes that are found in Isaiah 53 alone.

As you can see, there are dozens of ELSs from the Isaiah 53 cluster that are each less likely to appear by chance than the most likely Hanukah ELS. What is immediately evident is that none of the Hanukah ELSs are all that unusual. On the other hand, there are four Isaiah 53 ELSs that each have odds less than 1 in 1 million of crossing a randomly selected 1,000-letter long text. None of the Hanukah ELSs are anywhere near as unusual as the top ranked Isaiah 53 ELSs. The most unlikely Hanukah ELS has odds of 1 in 453 of appearing by chance.

Furthermore, distrust is high among skeptics. So we went far beyond what is reasonable in adjusting our calculations. In calculating the above odds, we assumed that for every word we did find as an ELS that we (or Rambsel/Jeffrey) actually had to look for 25 different comparable ELSs before we found the one we documented. That means that our probability calculation reflects the effects of looking for 10,000 different words about Christ in order to find the 400 distinct words we did locate as ELSs. The point is that there aren't that many different Hebrew words about the topic of Jesus of Nazareth. That is why we can conclude the odds of chance appearance are LESS THAN the 1 in 225,900,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000 quoted in the above chart, and that the Isaiah 53 cluster was intentionally embedded in the text.

Link

added spaces to huge number in last quotebox to fix page width - The Queen

This message has been edited by AdminAsgara, 01-11-2005 17:15 AM

Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, "Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?" And I said, "Here am I. Send me!" Isaiah 6:8
No webpage found at provided URL: www.1st-vets.us

This message is a reply to:
	Message 82 by Rrhain, posted 01-08-2005 3:54 PM		Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
	Message 91 by PaulK, posted 01-11-2005 11:24 AM	Tal has not replied
	Message 94 by Rrhain, posted 01-13-2005 3:03 AM	Tal has not replied

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