Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9164 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,901 Year: 4,158/9,624 Month: 1,029/974 Week: 356/286 Day: 12/65 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 918 of 1124 (908325)
03-10-2023 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by Tanypteryx
03-10-2023 6:03 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
Tanypteryx writes:
I thought the last couple generations of fighter jets are hand made and take 18 months to build and cost a billion dollars?
Closer to $100 million per for F-35's, but not sure about build time. F-16's are still being produced with a cost of around $20 million per plane. Munitions and ground support add to the price.
Or is it more like the President, or Congress, or the Pentagon says, "We're going to supply these." and then they send an order for X number of tanks, etc. to the manufacturer, and then the manufacturer contacts all their suppliers and order the parts and then?...
I figure it's like donating to a food bank. Get rid of the stock you need least and replace if absolutely necessary. I don't think anyone would be surprised if the US military has surplus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-10-2023 6:03 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 922 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2023 12:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(4)
Message 992 of 1124 (916208)
02-26-2024 4:11 PM
Reply to: Message 990 by Phat
02-26-2024 3:44 PM


Re: Too Many Wars
Phat writes:
If Putin beats us, it will be through dethroning the dollar itself.
Then he has a snowball's chance in hell of beating us. The dollar is the only game in town for the next few decades. No other country has anything close to the money supply, stability, or reduced conflict of interest in trade that the US has. Only about 10% of the US GDP is from trade while nearly half of Russia's GDP is from trade. The world won't use a currency for trade if the country holding that currency is so heavily tied into trade. It's too easy for them to manipulate their own currency for the upper hand in trade. Not to mention that Russia doesn't have 1% of the money needed to fulfill the volume of daily international trades and the Ruble's value is plummeting compared to the dollar. BRICS is pretty much 90% China, and China won't let their money leave their country.
Currently, there aren't even any other pretenders to throne of de facto international currency of choice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 990 by Phat, posted 02-26-2024 3:44 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 995 of 1124 (916868)
03-15-2024 11:38 AM
Reply to: Message 994 by Percy
03-15-2024 10:37 AM


Re: How's Russia Doing, Anyway?
Percy writes:
And neither have the Russian people turned against Putin, though that's only because all meaningful opponents are in jail or dead.
Re-establishing the Russian Empire probably is popular amongst ethnic Russians. The demographics of ethnic Russians is really horrible, so they probably only have 1 or 2 generations left before they can even attempt something like this.
Russia has also scared away all of the countries that they needed for industrial technology, especially for oil production. While they may have short term success, the long term doesn't look that bright at the moment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 994 by Percy, posted 03-15-2024 10:37 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1059 of 1124 (918085)
04-22-2024 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1025 by LamarkNewAge
04-21-2024 3:54 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
A hidden history of diplomacy that came up short—but holds lessons for future negotiations.
There was already a deal in place and it was called the Ukrainian border. Russia violated that agreement. They will violate any subsequent agreement.
Putin wants to reestablish the border of the old USSR. He wants a series of satellite states that stand between other European powers and the wide open plains of Russia. This includes countries like Poland and the Baltic states. This process started with the invasion of countries like Crimea, and it won't stop if Russia is given a portion of Ukraine.
Supporting Ukraine in their fight for their country will keep American military forces out of a war with Russia. That's what some people can't understand. After Ukraine, Putin's next move is to invade NATO countries that border Russia. The US has sworn to protect those NATO countries with US troops. Pushing Russia completely out of Ukraine is the only sane outcome to this war. Once Russia is out, Ukraine joins NATO and NATO countries step up with to secure Ukraine's border.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1025 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-21-2024 3:54 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 4:39 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1061 of 1124 (918100)
04-22-2024 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 1060 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 4:39 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
You do know that the Baltic states are part of NATO, correct?
Yes.
And your part about, "That's what some people can't understand", has to be a joke? Right?
What part are you referring to? That Putin is trying to reestablish the old USSR Iron Curtain that plugged all of the strategic geographic gaps leading to the Russian plains? That people are unaware of Putin's plan? That sacrificing US dollars is preferrable to sacrificing US troops? That stopping Putin and pushing him out of Ukraine is in the best interest of the US?
Which part exactly?
Geopolitical Analyst Peter Zeihan on Russia’s “War to the End” - Georgia Today
Ukraine's Olecsandyr Chalyi said:

April 2022 peace settlement

CHALYI APRIL 2022 PEACE SETTLEMENT
Given Ukraine turned it down, it must have meant Russia would hold the land they currently occupied. That's a no go. All they would do is build up troops in that region, and then try again to take the rest.
The one and only requirement for any peace treaty is Russia's complete withdrawal from Ukraine. That's it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 4:39 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1062 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 5:22 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1063 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 5:23 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(2)
Message 1064 of 1124 (918105)
04-22-2024 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1062 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 5:22 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
Russia was supportive of a ten to fifteen years plan to figure out the solution for parts of Eastern Ukraine.
The solution is that Russia immediately leaves all of Ukraine.
Obviously, Russia was in favor of the Democratic solution for the respective parts (relatively local referendums)

Ukraine openly bragged about executing Mayors of Eastern Ukraine towns, in 2022, saying they were fifth columnists.
It's the Russians who are executing mayors and local officials.
ukraine executing mayors - Google Search
The agreement was hashed out and Putin is certain Zelinski supported it.
Why would you trust anything that man says? And why should Ukraine give up one inch of their soil?
Russia didn't respect the Ukrainian borders when they invaded the first time. Why would they respect them in the future? All you would see is a series of invasions, each one whittling away what is left of Ukraine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1062 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 5:22 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 5:53 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1066 of 1124 (918113)
04-22-2024 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 1065 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 5:53 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
You buy too much propaganda.
It is rather hilarious that you follow that sentence with a bunch of propaganda.
Ukraine openly removed democratically elected parliamentary members, when parties were banned.
They banned the pro-Russian parties. Not exactly shocking given how hard the Ukrainians fought to get rid of the previous Russian puppet government that was effectively a kleptocracy. Is it so terrible that a country wants to protect its sovereignty by removing influence from other countries, not to mention the systemic corruption?
By the way, there were 349 registered and legal political parties in Ukraine as of 2020.
Democracy has been over in Ukraine for a decade.
Any evidence of this whatsoever?
Mayors, who were Ukrainian citizens, were killed.
Yes, by invading Russian soldiers.
Ukraine outlaws individuals - infact militias execute their fellow Ukrainian citizens.
That's on the list of known Russian misinformation.
quote:
In his announcement of the invasion, Putin baselessly claimed that Ukraine was carrying out genocide in the mainly Russian-speaking Donbas region.[68] He said the purpose of Russia's "military operation" was to "protect the people" of the Russian-controlled breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk. Putin claimed they had been facing "genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime" for eight years.[68] There is no evidence for Putin's claims of genocide, and they have been widely rejected as an excuse to justify invasion.[68][69][70][4][71][72]
Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
You are spreading known Russian propaganda.
Russia wanted to give Ukraine a deal, you say Ukraine did not want a deal, and because of the disagreements over the eastern parts of Ukraine? ( Your position is that Ukraine - itself, not due to western government's pressure - rejected the 2022 deal, due to the refusal to compromise on Eastern Ukraine's questionable status?)
Deal? A foreign country invades and takes part of your country, and you make a "deal" for them to keep it?
Do you work at a Russian propaganda farm?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1065 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 5:53 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1067 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 6:59 PM Taq has replied
 Message 1068 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 7:01 PM Taq has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1071 of 1124 (918123)
04-22-2024 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1067 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 6:59 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
The last truly democratically elected leader of Ukraine got run out of the country 10 years ago.

He did not cheat to win, when he won. Everybody got to vote.
Who? Yanukovych? Are you kidding me?
Do you mean the Russian puppet who escaped to Russia after all of his corruption was uncovered?
And cheating on elections?
quote:
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe confirmed witness accounts of voters being blocked from access to polls and being attacked along with local election officials who tried to frustrate the Berkut's practice of falsifying voters' ballots in favor of Yanukovych's Party of Regions candidates. Individual cases have been reported of citizens grouping together and fighting back against the Berkut in order to preserve election integrity and results.[182] Upon coming to power Yanukovych had reversed oversight measures established during the Yushchenko administration to restrain the Berkut's abuse of citizens whereupon the special force "upped its brutality."[183]
Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia
Yanukovych used violence against voters and election officials to gain power.
He was actually as moderate as they come. As pragmatic as they come
Do you work for the Russian government?
Added in edit:
quote:
Yanukovych and his associates, known as ‘the Family’, are believed to have embezzled as much as $37 billion and stashed it in bank accounts and company shares around the world, including in EU countries such as Austria, Latvia, Cyprus, Italy, and the Netherlands.
Viktor Yanukovych: corruption, opulence and decadence in Ukraine - Transparency International EU

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1067 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 6:59 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1076 of 1124 (918133)
04-22-2024 7:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1073 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 7:27 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
Taq already said "kleptocracy" is an excuse for outlawing parties and politicians.
(Read what he said closely)
quote:
When former Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych fled the country following the 2014 Maidan revolution, Ukrainian citizens who stormed his Mezhyhirya mansion discovered a palace of cartoonish opulence with guilded bathrooms, a private zoo, and a floating restaurant in the shape of a pirate ship. A good illustration of this extravagance is the $11 million he allegedly paid for a chandelier and his seven tablecloths worth a staggering $13,000.
This private opulence was all paid for with public money. Embezzlement in the Yanukovych era is said to have taken the form of theft, corruption in public procurement, rigged energy prices, and misuse of carbon-emissions allowances.
Yanukovych and his associates, known as ‘the Family’, are believed to have embezzled as much as $37 billion and stashed it in bank accounts and company shares around the world, including in EU countries such as Austria, Latvia, Cyprus, Italy, and the Netherlands.
Viktor Yanukovych: corruption, opulence and decadence in Ukraine - Transparency International EU
I would call embezzlement of 37 billion to be an issue.
He then said supporting "Russian propaganda" is a reason for bans.
Acting on behalf of Russia is a good reason for bans.
RUSSIA does not want the eastern provinces to be part of Russia. The ethnic Russians want freedom and probably autonomy. After the bloodshed, they possibly want an independent nation
That's an internal Ukrainian issue. It's their country. It is not a justification for invasion.
Yes, there is tension between the parts of Ukraine, but that is for Ukraine to deal with. They are a sovereign country. And yes, Russia does want that land, and all of Ukraine. They want all of the territory that was once controlled by the former USSR. They will spread disinformation and propaganda to meet those goals, and you swallow it hook, line, and sinker.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1073 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 7:27 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1077 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 7:45 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1078 of 1124 (918137)
04-22-2024 7:52 PM
Reply to: Message 1077 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 7:45 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
The same thing about corruption is said about every leader - even Zelinski.
So you don't deny massive corruption on the part of Yanukovych?
Instead, you try to cover it up by making baseless allegations about others?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1077 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 7:45 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1079 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 7:57 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1084 of 1124 (918147)
04-22-2024 8:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1079 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 7:57 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
The corruption is almost off topic.
This is boring, typical stuff.
Off topic? He was in Putin's pocket, and horrendously corrupt. The killing of protestors was another issue:
quote:
Ukrainian security officials say the killings of protesters in Kyiv in February occurred "under the direct leadership" of ousted President Viktor Yanukovych, and accused Russian security services of involvement in the repression.
Investigators Say Yanukovych Gave 'Criminal Order' To Kill Protesters
You go on and on about Ukrainian citizens being killed.
The election issues do not concern his win.

It concerns various local events, and he is accused of not doing enough to stop it.
You are quite right. I removed that part of the post before I realized you replied.
My apologies.
Any claims that he was trying to inflame a delicate society is probably propaganda.
What are you on about? Yanukovych was as corrupt as they come, and in Putin's pocket. He even fled there when he was ousted. This is the setting for what we have today.
Russia lost their influence in Ukraine, so now they are invading. It is as simple as that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1079 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 7:57 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1087 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 8:24 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1085 of 1124 (918148)
04-22-2024 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1083 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 8:08 PM


Re: Mayor Volodymyr Struk
LNA writes:
Mayor Volodymyr Struk
He was convicted outside of the courts by a "people's tribunal" for treason after the invasion by Russia had already begun. He was accused of working with Russia to help support the Russian invasion.
Should Struk have been brought before an actual court and tried? Absolutely. Is such action during a hot war too surprising? No. If you are being invaded by a hostile foreign power and one of your citizens is actively helping with that invasion, well . . . There is little doubt he was a traitor to his country.
More importantly, Struk was executed AFTER the invasion, so it couldn't have been a justification for the invasion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1083 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 8:08 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1089 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 8:27 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1091 of 1124 (918155)
04-22-2024 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 1087 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 8:24 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
The issue of who shot at the protestors,in 2014, is admitted by even current President Zelinski, to be unresolved.

The corruption issue is nothing that distinguishes one Ukrainian President from another.

Yanukovych was elected as a pragmatist who wanted to bridge the gap between Europe and Russia.

He wanted support from Ukrainians who fought on both sides of World War 2.

The 2010 local events were in the context of his pragmatic party enjoying record popularity.

He was not trying to inflame and divide the society.
How does any of this justify Russia invading Ukraine?
Russia already took Crimea from Ukraine after it lost influence in Ukraine with the ousting of Yanukovych. In 2022, Russia tried to take the whole of Ukraine.
Now you think Ukraine should take a "deal" where they give up yet another chunk of their country? They already did that with Crimea.
Russia isn't going to stop until they control all of Ukraine. And they don't want to stop with Ukraine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1087 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 8:24 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1093 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 9:46 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


Message 1092 of 1124 (918156)
04-22-2024 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 1089 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 8:27 PM


Re: Mayor Volodymyr Struk
Struk did not do anything BEFORE the invasion.
Would you agree that since Struk was executed after the Russian invasion started that his execution could not have been a justification for the invasion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1089 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 8:27 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1101 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 11:59 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10085
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.1


(1)
Message 1105 of 1124 (918189)
04-23-2024 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1093 by LamarkNewAge
04-22-2024 9:46 PM


Re: Foreign Affairs (first 15% of artcile)
LNA writes:
My biggest gripe with you is that you seem to feel that the available evidence indicates that Russia wants to take-over Ukraine.
Russia marched their military over the Ukraine border and towards Kyiv. What more evidence do you need? When you march your military into another country and towards the seat of government you are taking over a country. Period.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1093 by LamarkNewAge, posted 04-22-2024 9:46 PM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024