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Author Topic:   The War in Europe
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4553
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


Message 916 of 1138 (908323)
03-10-2023 6:03 PM


Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
News reporting about Ukraine almost always mentions whatever weapons are being sent and the weapons Ukraine is requesting and it got me wondering...
Are there huge stockpiles in the U.S. of Patriot Missiles, and tanks and fighter jets sitting around in warehouses waiting to fill orders domestically and abroad? I thought the last couple generations of fighter jets are hand made and take 18 months to build and cost a billion dollars?
Or is it more like the President, or Congress, or the Pentagon says, "We're going to supply these." and then they send an order for X number of tanks, etc. to the manufacturer, and then the manufacturer contacts all their suppliers and order the parts and then?...

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


Replies to this message:
 Message 917 by nwr, posted 03-10-2023 6:09 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied
 Message 918 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 6:52 PM Tanypteryx has replied
 Message 919 by NosyNed, posted 03-10-2023 8:18 PM Tanypteryx has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6434
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


(1)
Message 917 of 1138 (908324)
03-10-2023 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by Tanypteryx
03-10-2023 6:03 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
I'm not sure, but I have the impression that some of the weapons are coming from our military. And Biden's budget proposal will include funding for the military to replace some of what has been sent to Ukraine.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity --> -->

This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-10-2023 6:03 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10187
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.0


(1)
Message 918 of 1138 (908325)
03-10-2023 6:52 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by Tanypteryx
03-10-2023 6:03 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
Tanypteryx writes:
I thought the last couple generations of fighter jets are hand made and take 18 months to build and cost a billion dollars?
Closer to $100 million per for F-35's, but not sure about build time. F-16's are still being produced with a cost of around $20 million per plane. Munitions and ground support add to the price.
Or is it more like the President, or Congress, or the Pentagon says, "We're going to supply these." and then they send an order for X number of tanks, etc. to the manufacturer, and then the manufacturer contacts all their suppliers and order the parts and then?...
I figure it's like donating to a food bank. Get rid of the stock you need least and replace if absolutely necessary. I don't think anyone would be surprised if the US military has surplus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-10-2023 6:03 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 922 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2023 12:13 PM Taq has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 9006
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


(1)
Message 919 of 1138 (908329)
03-10-2023 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 916 by Tanypteryx
03-10-2023 6:03 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
One valuable lesson the west got from supplying the Ukraine is that they couldn't fight a war of even a few weeks duration.
The US has only been ordering enough ammunition to replace training rounds so now there are only about 5 defense contractors and only one supply line for each thing needed. This means there are inadequate stockpiles for a real defense and no way to rapidly build up the production capacity.
The needs of the Ukrainian forces have clearly exposed this short coming.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 916 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-10-2023 6:03 PM Tanypteryx has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 920 by xongsmith, posted 03-10-2023 11:20 PM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 921 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2023 12:07 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2603
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009


(1)
Message 920 of 1138 (908332)
03-10-2023 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 919 by NosyNed
03-10-2023 8:18 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
NosyNed writes:
The needs of the Ukrainian forces have clearly exposed this short coming.
That may be, but evidently the Russkies are in an even worse position, fortunately.
Go Ukraine!

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by NosyNed, posted 03-10-2023 8:18 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4553
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 921 of 1138 (908336)
03-11-2023 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 919 by NosyNed
03-10-2023 8:18 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
The US has only been ordering enough ammunition to replace training rounds so now there are only about 5 defense contractors and only one supply line for each thing needed. This means there are inadequate stockpiles for a real defense and no way to rapidly build up the production capacity.
The same thing that the pandemic showed us...American policy is to never be prepared for anything and then just deny that the crisis exists and pretend that you fixed everything. It's sad when half of a society gets dementia.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 919 by NosyNed, posted 03-10-2023 8:18 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4553
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(1)
Message 922 of 1138 (908337)
03-11-2023 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 918 by Taq
03-10-2023 6:52 PM


Re: Where do weapons for Ukraine come from?
I figure it's like donating to a food bank. Get rid of the stock you need least and replace if absolutely necessary.
Yeah, that makes sense, plus in theory, you know the used stuff works.
I don't think anyone would be surprised if the US military has surplus.
Well, $780 billion a year buys a lot of stuff, even after salaries.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 918 by Taq, posted 03-10-2023 6:52 PM Taq has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 923 of 1138 (908339)
03-11-2023 3:41 PM


Military Industrial Complex
I always thought that the whole idea of a military industrial complex, greedy as it is, was to use our older equipment up in wars, test the new equipment there, and continue funding the corporations that make and build the new stuff. Ukraine gives us an opportunity to use up older stuff (which is still newer than most of what Russia has) help an Ally defend freedom (which is the preferred export to the world rather than this whole silly notion of equality ) and keep the Communists firmly in check. Putin is a Dictator. So is Xi. get over the idea that we can all simply get along. They will wipe out our middle class in order to build up theirs.
They have proven time and time again to care nothing for people who want to get ahead in life...unless one is a member of the communist party in that particular country. One can aspire to be an Oligarch! In summation, our capitalist system is not perfect but is preferable to Both Russia and China's systems. You don't see many people leaving the United States to find a better opportunity in those countries now do you?
Of course you cheesy Neo-liberals imagine a world of equity and equality and kum ba yah by the secular humanist campfire. What you fail to realize is that human nature is not simply a willful inner decision to be nice to everyone. There is in fact a spiritual war. Always has been....which partly explains the elusiveness of Mid East Peace.

Replies to this message:
 Message 924 by Percy, posted 03-11-2023 5:05 PM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22666
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 924 of 1138 (908342)
03-11-2023 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 923 by Phat
03-11-2023 3:41 PM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
Of course you cheesy Neo-liberals imagine a world of equity and equality and kum ba yah by the secular humanist campfire. What you fail to realize is that human nature is not simply a willful inner decision to be nice to everyone. There is in fact a spiritual war. Always has been....which partly explains the elusiveness of Mid East Peace.
We strive for equality because it is the right thing to do, rather than ceasing our efforts in the face of obstacles and sitting on the sidelines while discrimination happens, or even worse, joining in.
I hope you're not as horrible as you sound, that you're just trying to get attention.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 923 by Phat, posted 03-11-2023 3:41 PM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 925 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2023 6:02 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9337
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 925 of 1138 (908344)
03-11-2023 6:02 PM
Reply to: Message 924 by Percy
03-11-2023 5:05 PM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
I fear that is the true Phat.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 924 by Percy, posted 03-11-2023 5:05 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 926 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2023 6:37 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4553
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.0


(2)
Message 926 of 1138 (908345)
03-11-2023 6:37 PM
Reply to: Message 925 by Theodoric
03-11-2023 6:02 PM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
After all these years his true character is no surprise.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 925 by Theodoric, posted 03-11-2023 6:02 PM Theodoric has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 927 by Phat, posted 03-12-2023 4:12 AM Tanypteryx has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


(1)
Message 927 of 1138 (908347)
03-12-2023 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 926 by Tanypteryx
03-11-2023 6:37 PM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
None of you know my true character. All you know is what I say here. And TBH I DO often get bored and seek to push a few buttons. Theodoric will say that it is Trollish behavior and that I should just crawl back under my rock.
I consider EvC to be my hangout. I've been here 20 years. We have all come a long way together. If you suddenly suggest that this rant is my true character, maybe you had better look in a mirror.
After all, I hope none of you think that I seek to be more like you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 926 by Tanypteryx, posted 03-11-2023 6:37 PM Tanypteryx has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 928 by nwr, posted 03-12-2023 11:05 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 929 by Percy, posted 03-12-2023 12:40 PM Phat has replied

  
nwr
Member
Posts: 6434
From: Geneva, Illinois
Joined: 08-08-2005
Member Rating: 4.6


(2)
Message 928 of 1138 (908350)
03-12-2023 11:05 AM
Reply to: Message 927 by Phat
03-12-2023 4:12 AM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
None of you know my true character.
Hmm. I'll put on my psychologist hat. I'm not in any way a psychologist, so I am making it up as I go along.
You are bored most of the time. You start new topics and open really old threads to relieve your boredom and get some communication going. You are religious partly because that religious community is almost the only community you have.
*** end of making stuff up ***
For me, it was easy to leave religion behind me, because I had found community elsewhere. And I pay enough attention to what is going on in the world, that I am seldom bored.
I think we are way off topic.

--> -->Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity <-- <--

This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by Phat, posted 03-12-2023 4:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22666
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.6


(1)
Message 929 of 1138 (908354)
03-12-2023 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 927 by Phat
03-12-2023 4:12 AM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
Phat writes:
And TBH I DO often get bored and seek to push a few buttons.
I find this despicable.
Do you remember an old book called All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten: Uncommon Thoughts on Common Things? One of the things learned is honesty.
It is one of the ironies of the religious that many need its help because basic humanity isn't built into them but must somehow be taught them, yet they are the most impervious to such help.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 927 by Phat, posted 03-12-2023 4:12 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 930 by Phat, posted 03-12-2023 1:37 PM Percy has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18417
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003


Message 930 of 1138 (908355)
03-12-2023 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 929 by Percy
03-12-2023 12:40 PM


Re: Military Industrial Complex
Percy writes:
Do you remember an old book called All I Really Need to Know I Learned in Kindergarten: Uncommon Thoughts on Common Things? One of the things learned is honesty.
And I try and be honest as much as I can. I remember that book. Here were the other things. Lets go down the list and compare the list with the world we see, the ideologies we discuss and those we embrace:
  • Share everything This is perhaps the major sticking point between the Republicans and the Democrats. In my mind, the Democrats want to legislate that the Reublicans MUST share. The Republicans by and large value freedom to share over demands to embrace equality and equity.
  • Play fair. So lets discuss whats fair. You guys first.
  • Don't hit people. (Im too old to hit very hard and too scared to get hit by hangry young homeless people, so I try and talk with them rather than hate on them. My verbal skills are a two edged sword. I save my ranting for online. I NEVER rant in public!
  • Put things back where you found them.
    To be continued.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 929 by Percy, posted 03-12-2023 12:40 PM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 931 by Percy, posted 03-12-2023 2:28 PM Phat has not replied

      
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