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Author Topic:   Gun Control III
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1314
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 1052 of 1110 (895367)
06-23-2022 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1051 by AnswersInGenitals
06-23-2022 4:56 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
I want us to live in a free state and for that state to be secure. To that end, we have a well regulated Militia made up of the people, US citizens, who keep and bear arms.

It is called The United States Department of Defense.
Is it also called the IRS? The Railroad Retirement Board?
Gaetz blasts IRS, railroad agency buying up ammo: 'The heaviest artillery they need is a calculator'
There seem to be many U.S. government agencies that have nothing to do with homeland security, law enforcement, or the military, yet have an appetite for guns and ammo almost as magical as the general public has.
Now I see some liberal websites that say "Oh this is nothing new, the IRS has been heavily armed long before the Biden presidency." What's new for me, and I'm sure millions of others, is not knowing this because the mainstream media never reports it.
Are gun control advocates completely comfortable and content with domestic agencies of the U.S. government being heavily armed? No questions about exactly why they do that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1051 by AnswersInGenitals, posted 06-23-2022 4:56 PM AnswersInGenitals has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1053 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2022 12:14 AM marc9000 has replied
 Message 1054 by ringo, posted 06-24-2022 12:08 PM marc9000 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 6837
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 3.5


(6)
Message 1053 of 1110 (895373)
06-24-2022 12:14 AM
Reply to: Message 1052 by marc9000
06-23-2022 9:51 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
Now I see some liberal websites that say "Oh this is nothing new, the IRS has been heavily armed long before the Biden presidency." What's new for me, and I'm sure millions of others, is not knowing this because the mainstream media never reports it.
You really are that dense, aren't you.
You say the news media is at fault for not informing you? Yet, every open public budget plan for every federal agency includes arms and ammo for their internal security service.
Public hearings. That is where the interested person can find these things. And the media publishes such, openly, for anyone willing to dig through the minutiae of budget details on a federal agency.
This has been going on for centuries in security arms of every federal agency. That you did not know this is the fault of your own lack of sincerity on the issue. Your concern is fake. After centuries, now (in the last five minutes while writing your screed) security agency arms becomes a big concern for you to harp on and spew mud.
Wake up, marc9000! There is an entire society here you apparently neglect to see. The media is not responsible for your shotty and politically-skewed attention span.
Oh my. The Postal Police have guns ... and have had guns since the pony express.
You are such an idiot.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1052 by marc9000, posted 06-23-2022 9:51 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1056 by marc9000, posted 06-25-2022 9:27 PM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19784
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1054 of 1110 (895380)
06-24-2022 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 1052 by marc9000
06-23-2022 9:51 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
marc9000 writes:
Are gun control advocates completely comfortable and content with domestic agencies of the U.S. government being heavily armed?
Am I getting a whiff of, "Ordinary citizens need to be armed to protect themselves from the government?"
I know your nation is built on treason but most "revolutionary governments" tend to be rapidly opposed to counter-revolutions. If you're planning on rising up against your government, it's probably a good thing that you finally found out they were armed.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1052 by marc9000, posted 06-23-2022 9:51 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1055 by xongsmith, posted 06-24-2022 4:50 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied
 Message 1057 by marc9000, posted 06-25-2022 9:37 PM ringo has replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2245
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 1055 of 1110 (895383)
06-24-2022 4:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by ringo
06-24-2022 12:08 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
ringo writes:
I know your nation is built on treason but most "revolutionary governments" tend to be rapidly opposed to counter-revolutions. If you're planning on rising up against your government, it's probably a good thing that you finally found out they were armed.
but i wonder . . . since the Oligarchy corporate rule is also probably heavily armed, what can we plebes do about that? what if they had sided with Trump and showed up in force to smash into the chamber, hang Pence and Pelosi and declare Trump the winner? we were that close to being overrun by the Trump cultists. 40 feet away from Pence at one point. maybe we were saved by the bottom line - the only thing that the corporate oligarchy ever takes any time to care about. scary to think about.

"I'm the Grim Reaper now, Mitch. Step aside."
Death to #TzarVladimirtheCondemned!
Enjoy every sandwich!

- xongsmith, 5.7dawkins scale


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by ringo, posted 06-24-2022 12:08 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1314
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 1056 of 1110 (895401)
06-25-2022 9:27 PM
Reply to: Message 1053 by AZPaul3
06-24-2022 12:14 AM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
You say the news media is at fault for not informing you? Yet, every open public budget plan for every federal agency includes arms and ammo for their internal security service.

Public hearings. That is where the interested person can find these things. And the media publishes such, openly, for anyone willing to dig through the minutiae of budget details on a federal agency.
The majority of the general public is not interested in page after page of budget plans, of boring public hearings, or digging through minutiae of budget deals for federal agencies. If the general public doesn't have these things summarized and presented to them by someone, oh, maybe the mainstream media whose job it is to do it, then they become uninformed voters. It's not their fault, they have work to do, and lives to lead.
This was made clear in polls that showed a percentage of voters wouldn't have voted for Biden if they'd known about the Hunter Biden laptop, and the related corruption between father and son during the Biden vice presidency. This information was all over Fox News and the New York post, but the majority of the public missed it, because the mainstream, over-the-air news covered it up. And the public didn't spend any time digging for it.
Climate change is an issue that makes it to the top 5 or 6 of biggest concerns for Americans. They didn't get that concern by digging through reams of scientific information, they got it because the news media summarizes it and sensationalizes it for them. I think it ranked sixth, behind;
1) Inflation
2) Skyrocketing oil prices
3) The wide open southern border
4) Biden turning to shake hands with someone when no one was there (haha, just kidding, the news media covered that up)
5) Biden falling off his bicycle like a small child and hitting his empty head on the pavement (whoops, kidding again haha)
Maybe climate change is fourth, can't remember exactly.
So you believe the general public is fully informed, and approves of all the various domestic government agencies, who are heavily armed, who use taxpayer money to satisfy their appetites for more and more ammo?
One of the forum rules says something about "bare assertions". I don't mind bare assertions, if they are logical. Your bare assertion isn't logical. Do you have any links, any proof, that the public is cool with the IRS being heavily armed? Or you think that Matt Gaetz and I are the only ones who wonder about this? And what they believe they need ammo for?
This has been going on for centuries in security arms of every federal agency. That you did not know this is the fault of your own lack of sincerity on the issue. Your concern is fake. After centuries, now (in the last five minutes while writing your screed) security agency arms becomes a big concern for you to harp on and spew mud.
You describe the U.S. in terms of "centuries"? Did you know that the U.S. is less than three centuries old, and most all of its armed domestic agencies didn't exist even one century ago? The IRS wasn't formed until 1953. And I doubt it was heavily armed in its first year, or first decade.
Wake up, marc9000! There is an entire society here you apparently neglect to see. The media is not responsible for your shotty and politically-skewed attention span.

Oh my. The Postal Police have guns ... and have had guns since the pony express.
The Pony Express, yes, a time when most American males carried guns, and had NO GUN LAWS to obey. Does today's Postal Police have any new restrictions because of the new gun law Biden recently signed? Does any federal agency? Or are they, and all federal agencies passed over EVERY TIME a new gun law is passed for only the general public to obey?
You are such an idiot.
Another forum rule issue there, but I think that one was unofficially suspended when Trump became president, and the economy boomed. It could have come back in force when he was finally out, but it better stay suspended for awhile, since his replacement is such a disaster. So you and all your helpers can continue to call me a flurry of names, it's very impressive.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1053 by AZPaul3, posted 06-24-2022 12:14 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1060 by Percy, posted 06-26-2022 11:59 AM marc9000 has replied
 Message 1063 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2022 12:44 PM marc9000 has replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1314
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 1057 of 1110 (895402)
06-25-2022 9:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1054 by ringo
06-24-2022 12:08 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
Am I getting a whiff of, "Ordinary citizens need to be armed to protect themselves from the government?"
Yes you are! Watch the following vid, and ask yourself if this looks like the U.S. to you;
Watch 900 ATVs and Motorcycles Bulldozed as NYC Mayor Waves Checkered Flag
Do Democrats rejoice at this sort of thing? I wonder if they have plans to bulldoze anything else in the future, after the public is more completely disarmed? Maybe older cars that cause climate change?
If you're planning on rising up against your government, it's probably a good thing that you finally found out they were armed.
There are no serious plans to "rise up against the government", but many regular Americans like the intimidation factor that an armed public has. The bravest, most arrogant government agent, whether armed with an automatic weapon or a bulldozer, doesn't like the idea of getting filled full of holes himself.

Edited by marc9000, : add one line


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1054 by ringo, posted 06-24-2022 12:08 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1058 by ringo, posted 06-26-2022 11:12 AM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19784
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 1058 of 1110 (895411)
06-26-2022 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 1057 by marc9000
06-25-2022 9:37 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
marc9000 writes:
Do Democrats rejoice at this sort of thing?
1. I am not a Democrat, so I don't presume to know what they think.
2. I don't necessarily "rejoice" but I do approve. In Canada, confiscated weapons go to the local steel mill to be melted down into pipelines.
I wonder if they have plans to bulldoze anything else in the future, after the public is more completely disarmed?
I wish they had plans to further disarm the public.
Maybe older cars that cause climate change?
Good idea.

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1057 by marc9000, posted 06-25-2022 9:37 PM marc9000 has seen this message but not replied

  
Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 3437
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 4.3


(3)
Message 1059 of 1110 (895415)
06-26-2022 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1045 by Percy
06-19-2022 8:20 PM


Re: Biden's speech
Or maybe he did, but they were like all his other policies: exploitation for maximum profit no matter what the cost to future generations.
Yeah, fraud is his primary MO, but his primary goal was the dismantling of our governmental agencies, based on his appointees to run them, and suspension of the rule of law.
So far, it looks like he is the most successful conman in human history, considering the 70+ million size of the Trump Crime Cult.

Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python

One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie

If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1045 by Percy, posted 06-19-2022 8:20 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20988
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


(1)
Message 1060 of 1110 (895416)
06-26-2022 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1056 by marc9000
06-25-2022 9:27 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
This is a gun control thread. I think you should open a thread about the media and take all your complaints there.
You say the news media is at fault for not informing you? Yet, every open public budget plan for every federal agency includes arms and ammo for their internal security service.

Public hearings. That is where the interested person can find these things. And the media publishes such, openly, for anyone willing to dig through the minutiae of budget details on a federal agency.
The majority of the general public is not interested in page after page of budget plans, of boring public hearings, or digging through minutiae of budget deals for federal agencies. If the general public doesn't have these things summarized and presented to them by someone, oh, maybe the mainstream media whose job it is to do it, then they become uninformed voters. It's not their fault, they have work to do, and lives to lead.
The media should report on newsworthy events. I'm not sure distilling things like budgetary minutia qualifies unless they suspect something newsworthy is buried in the data, e.g., that the mayor is diverting city work to friends.
This was made clear in polls that showed a percentage of voters wouldn't have voted for Biden if they'd known about the Hunter Biden laptop,...
You don't have a poll. You have a graphic by someone named Kyle Martinsen who didn't reveal that he works for the Republican National Committee as their Deputy Rapid Response Director, and that he worked for the Donald J. Trump for President, Inc., committee during the 2020 election. He's probably around 24, not exactly old enough to have much if any experience with polling, and he went to the University of Buffalo but apparently didn't graduate as he's still a senior. Here's his tweet of his poll:
Here's a closeup of his poll graphic that's more easily readable:
He says his poll question was for people who voted for Biden who were previously unaware of the FBI investigation of Hunter Biden, but never says what percentage of his poll sample that was. Then he announces, obviously erroneously, that 16% of all Biden voters would not have voted for him had they known, when his poll population was only a subset of total Biden voters.
And then there's problems with his poll question:
If you had been aware of this actual evidence in emails, texts, testimony and banking transactions being investigate by the FBI, would you have <presents a number of alternatives>.
This question is known as "poisoning the well." Any poll can be tilted by using the question to feed in negative information. In this case the poll question references "actual evidence" while presenting none but leaving people the strong implication that it isn't the good kind of evidence.
Here's how one might honestly and neutrally phrase such a question:
The FBI is investigating Hunter Biden for possible violations of tax and money laundering laws, and Delaware is investigating whether he violated the law by not registering as a foreign lobbyist. Had you known about these investigations, would you have <presents a number of alternatives>.
Note that I also included the Delaware investigations. Had he asked the question this way he would have gotten different numbers, and then, were he to continue in an honest fashion, he would have reported that the percentage of people indicating they would not have voted for Biden was not a percentage of everyone who voted for Biden, but a percentage of everyone who voted for Biden who also didn't know about the Hunter Biden investigations.
But there's other important information that I could find nowhere on the net. What was his poll size (you need a poll population above around 1700 to have 95% confidence in the results) ? How did he insure that his poll population was a random sample (a random sample is essential to having high confidence in the results)? These are the type of poll requirements that demand an experienced team. Did he have an experienced polling team at his disposal? Who knows?
...and the related corruption between father and son during the Biden vice presidency. This information was all over Fox News and the New York post, but the majority of the public missed it, because the mainstream, over-the-air news covered it up. And the public didn't spend any time digging for it.
Fox News and the New York Post reported these things, yet the investigations haven't been completed yet, and very little information has been made public. Neither outlet is known for its investigative journalism, so it's unlikely they were reporting anything true. As far as I was able to establish, neither Fox News nor the New York Post have ever won any prestigious journalism awards ever. They don't have much credibility.
Climate change is an issue that makes it to the top 5 or 6 of biggest concerns for Americans. They didn't get that concern by digging through reams of scientific information, they got it because the news media summarizes it and sensationalizes it for them.
Sounds like you believe climate change is a fiction perpetrated on the American public by a sensation-seeking news media looking to build readership. Again, you should open a thread on the news media.
So you believe the general public is fully informed,...
I know this is addressed to AZPaul3, and I don't want to put words in his mouth, but all the evidence says that the general public is woefully uninformed, the younger the worser. What led you to believe AZPaul3 thinks the general public is fully informed? That's crazy.
What I thought AZPaul3 said, and said very clearly, is that if you're uninformed then it isn't the news media's fault but your own, because the information is out there if you want it. You instead make a determined effort to remain as ignorant as possible about anything that doesn't align with your political views while swallowing whole all kinds of fictions and conspiracy theories from the right. The way your mind seems to work is that if it agrees with or reinforces what you already think then it must be true.
...and approves of all the various domestic government agencies, who are heavily armed, who use taxpayer money to satisfy their appetites for more and more ammo?
This is finally something closer to the thread's topic, though I know nothing about how armed most federal agencies are. My position is that the fewer guns the better.
One of the forum rules says something about "bare assertions". I don't mind bare assertions, if they are logical. Your bare assertion isn't logical. Do you have any links, any proof, that the public is cool with the IRS being heavily armed? Or you think that Matt Gaetz and I are the only ones who wonder about this? And what they believe they need ammo for?
Matt Gaetz, he of allegations of cocaine snorting and sex trafficking and shacking up with a 17-year-old girl and of showing images of girls he'd slept to Republican colleagues on the House floor, and of his legal troubles forcing him to let his law license lapse in Florida since it likely would not have been renewed anyway, is not exactly a font of truth. It is true that the IRS buys guns and ammo for its Criminal Investigation Division, but they have to deal with the modern day equivalents of Al Capone. There are 3300 employees in that division, and they have 4487 guns according to a 2017 Forbes report. I don't know if that's too many guns or not, but let's do a little math.
Let's say that 1500 employees carry guns in the IRS Criminal Investigation Division. They have to go to a firing range periodically. Let's say they go four times a year and fire 50 rounds each time. That totals 300,000 rounds annually. The IRS allocates around $750,000 annually for ammunition, so if they purchased 300,000 rounds then they were charged about $2.5 per round. Sounds like a lot, but ammunition gets old and has to be replaced. If their inventory is 5 million rounds as Forbes reported and they replace 10% per year, then that's another 500,000 rounds, so redoing the math that would mean they're paying $0.94 per round. Does that sound reasonable, or still too much?
We don't know the specifics of how many IRS employees carry guns or at least were issued a gun, and we don't know how often on average they use the firing range or how many rounds they fire each time, and we don't know how fast they replace old ammo, but the IRS spending $750,000 annually on ammo seems like a pretty reasonable amount. My own preference is that they not carry guns at all, but given the information available on line the $750,000 doesn't seem out of line in the way Matt Gaetz of all the legal troubles makes it sound.
The IRS wasn't formed until 1953.
That's the year it was formally renamed the Internal Revenue Service (original name was Bureau of Internal Revenue), not the year it was formed. The organization goes back to 1913 when the 16th amendment was ratified. Al Capone was jailed for tax evasion in 1932, which couldn't have happened if the IRS didn't exist then: IRS investigation of Al Capone - Wikisource, the free online library
Wake up, marc9000! There is an entire society here you apparently neglect to see. The media is not responsible for your shoddy and politically-skewed attention span.

Oh my. The Postal Police have guns ... and have had guns since the pony express.
The Pony Express, yes, a time when most American males carried guns, and had NO GUN LAWS to obey. Does today's Postal Police have any new restrictions because of the new gun law Biden recently signed? Does any federal agency? Or are they, and all federal agencies passed over EVERY TIME a new gun law is passed for only the general public to obey?
Your modus operandi for responding to any issue seems to be "Open mouth, sound off senselessly about something, the less relevant the better."
While I favor any laws that reduce the number of guns out there, I don't think we should spend our scarce gun control capital on expanding firearm constraints inside federal agencies. That doesn't seem anywhere close to where the big problems with guns are. The most serious problems are suicides and the many, many one or two at a time shootings.
Enhancing background checks for gun buyers, part of the new legislation, is good. The rest of the bill, which incentivizes "red flag" laws and provides financial assistance for mental health and school safety, is like spitting in the wind: useless and pointless. Including dating partners as potential domestic abusers was the only other good thing.
You are such an idiot.
Another forum rule issue there,...
There's little administration going on here these days, but I gotta say that you'd be difficult for an admin to defend. I think in many cases admins would be faced with the question, "Is he actually sincere but stupid, or is he a troll?" There are no easy ways to get an accurate answer to that question, and so admins will instead apply other approaches, like trying to keep discussion narrowly focused on the topic.
...but I think that one was unofficially suspended when Trump became president, and the economy boomed.
The economy was already booming when Trump took office. You've said this many times and been corrected many times, yet you're still saying it. Behavior like this causes admins to lean in the direction of judging you a troll. Here's a graphic similar to the others you've seen so many times showing the economy with a healthy growth rate under both Obama and Trump:
Oh, but wait, what's that we see in 2020? Is the color yellow instead of blue? Is that a decline in GDP of 3.4%? Gee, who was president in 2020?
Now if you were an anti-Trump nut instead of the reverse and it had been you presenting that graph you would have just left it at that, or at least that's consistent with your history here. Were you anti-Trump you would have said that the economy went down in 2020, that that's all on Trump, and you would have left it at that.
But it isn't you presenting the data, it's me, and so honesty makes it incumbent upon me to note that 2020 was the first covid year when so much of the country shut down for various periods of time. Not Trump's fault. The mishandling of covid that resulted in the highest death rate in the developed world is Trump's fault, but not the economy.
It could have come back in force when he was finally out, but it better stay suspended for awhile, since his replacement is such a disaster.
I've already said a number of times how underwhelming I find Biden. He was just the obvious clear choice when the choice was between a normal politician (that's not praise) and an autocratic, narcissistic, anti-democratic liar with dreams of dictatorship.
So you and all your helpers can continue to call me a flurry of names, it's very impressive.
I find name calling deplorable, mainly because it demonstrates such laziness. If someone has trouble with facts and logic then just say so while citing specific examples. Calling him an idiot is just lazy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by marc9000, posted 06-25-2022 9:27 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1066 by marc9000, posted 06-27-2022 8:19 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7433
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 1061 of 1110 (895430)
06-27-2022 9:32 AM
Reply to: Message 1048 by marc9000
06-22-2022 9:06 PM


Re: Where are all the good guys with guns?
You know that is not true. Or are you truly an idiot?

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1048 by marc9000, posted 06-22-2022 9:06 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1067 by marc9000, posted 06-27-2022 8:23 PM Theodoric has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 20988
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 3.4


Message 1062 of 1110 (895436)
06-27-2022 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 1037 by marc9000
06-18-2022 10:57 PM


Re: Biden's speech
Was traveling and missed this one.
marc9000 writes:
Percy writes:
The reality is that the media is your favorite whipping boy. You've blamed them for innumerable things over the years.

Just like law abiding citizens with guns are your favorite whipping boy?

Why not just accuse me of being a communist?
Because I don't name call.
Ah, I see. False accusations about treating gun owners as whipping boys are okay, but false accusations of being a communist are not okay. I'm glad you draw the line somewhere about what kind of false accusations you're willing to make.
You propose laws for NO ONE but law abiding citizens, as if that will cause a huge number of guns to magically disappear.
I just want to reduce the number of guns in the country. Naturally this will require legislation, and a little further on I detail what that should cover.
Can't you learn from history, that prohibition DID NOT cause the consumption of alcohol to diminish in any meaningful way? That it caused nothing but additional trouble?
I've often suspected that firing a gun provides a high.
Your analogy of gun control with alcohol control doesn't hold up because examples from all over the world show that the fewer guns, the fewer gun injuries and deaths.
Probably producers and anchors and other high ranking staff in consultation together make these decisions. And yes, of course for a sitting president when he uses the airwaves to undermine democracy. It was known Trump was telling lies then, and he's still telling the same lies.
And Biden never lied when he said "I'M GOING TO SHUT DOWN THE VIRUS", several times during his campaign? The media didn't cut him off.
Let's say that every word out of Biden's mouth is a lie. How is that relevant to Trump's undermining of our democratic institutions and of democracy itself by lying to a base that accepts every unfounded claim he makes?
When it's factual that producers, anchors, and other high ranking staff in the mainstream media overwhelmingly vote for Democrats, they still make sure their news reporting is politically unbiased?
I think you need to start a thread about the media. This thread's about gun control.
If you have no defense for your years of insupportable accusations against the media, just say so.
As you know, I've supported them.
No you haven't. You've ignored all the rebuttals of your baseless claims, which seem to involve watching ABC World News Tonight and then applying all your gratuitous complaints about it to any news media outlet you don't like.
If you want to keep claiming that the mainstream media is completely unbiased, okay.
I never made that claim. My claim is that your claims are biased and exaggerated and frequently just plain wrong. I again suggest you open a thread on the media.
Your helpers will call me names for it, and we'll just have to leave it there.
My helpers? Paranoid much?
I have often said that politicians are all of the same breed. They possess similar qualities, it goes with wanting the job. Naturally some are better than others when it comes to honesty and integrity, but did any previous president, Republican or Democrat, ever lie in ways that threatened the foundation of democracy?
What way is that,...
You're asking for the blatantly obvious for reasons known only to yourself, but to answer your question, Trump called the election fraudulent, even though he knew that was untrue, because he knew it would stir up his base, sowing chaos and confusion that he hoped would disrupt and hopefully change the counting of the electoral college votes, finally resulting in the January 6th insurrection. He's still calling the 2020 presidential election fraudulent even though unable to unearth any evidence, and despite even many Republicans telling him they can find no evidence of fraud anywhere near substantial enough to influence the outcome.
...trying to incrementally destroy the second amendment?
Welcome back to the thread's topic of gun control. Why do you think requiring registration of firearms, requiring that people be licensed to own a firearm, and requiring that guns have more safety features would destroy the second amendment?
How did Trump equally threaten the foundation of democracy?
By undermining faith in our free and fair elections, and by conspiring to hold onto power even though he'd lost the election, i.e., he staged a coup which fortunately failed.
Getting off the backs of oil companies so the U.S. became energy independent?
You've drifted off the topic again, but the United States was already producing more oil than it consumed under Obama.
Now you're just employing scare tactics. Quality gun control would involve registration of firearms, licensing of firearm owners, and hopefully safety improvements to the firearms themselves.
So the government knows who has them, so taking the future step of confiscation becomes easy for them.
Here's a conspiracy theory for you. You know why the government requires registration of cars, boats and planes? Because they're preparing for the future step of taking them away.
I love how climate change alarmists accuse OTHERS of "scare tactics".
Good to know you don't name call.
marc9000 writes:
The more government requirements there are for skilled marksmen, the fewer skilled marksmen there are going to be.

Uh, okay, possibly. So?
So if an unforeseeable event happens in the future (Ukraine?) where as many citizens as possible need to be armed, there would be fewer people who would know how to use them.
Sure, I suppose that's true. But while you wait for this hypothetical invasion we have a horrifyingly high level of firearm-related suicides and homicides, and it's only getting worse:
I know, a laugher, just like on September 10 2001, the thought of U.S. planes being flown into buildings by terrorists was a laugher.
Boy, for someone who doesn't name call you sure have a way of saying some wickedly horrible things about people.
I think we need laws that benefit the most people (i.e., result in the fewest firearm related deaths), not that address one-of events that pull at the heart strings.
LIKE MASS SHOOTINGS?
Mass shootings are now occurring at roughly the rate of one per day. There have been 293 mass shootings so far this year, we're at day 178, so that's 1.6 mass shootings per day. Not a one-of.
After so many errors one wonders that you haven't already begun checking your facts before putting fingers in gear, but I guess it just isn't in you.
Then they're big stuff for ONE kind of law, get the guns from law abiding citizens!!!
The numbers tell us that guns in the home place the residents and their family and friends at greater risk of firearm injury and death, not less. People don't understand this, so after every gun incident in the news gun purchases increase.
But if people understood the reality then people who don't have guns would stand pat, and people who do have guns would review how safely stored their guns and ammunition are and consider reducing the number of guns they own or even getting rid of them entirely.
Forget about mental illness,...
Agreed. It isn't possible to predict what someone will do in the future.
...atheism taught in science classes,...
You're making things up again. Atheism isn't taught in science class. Atheism is not part of any science curriculum. Undoubtedly it comes up sometimes, but how teachers handle it will vary widely.
...decay of morals,...
If rising firearm injuries and deaths is caused by declining religiosity, then why does the more religious United States have far more firearm injuries and deaths than far less religious Europe? What the rising firearm injury and death rates actually correlates with is the number of guns.
I see you chopped the alert to your sarcasm detecter off what you quoted. Anyway, what I've actually said about gun nuts is that they're in love with guns. The guns have an almost mystical power over them that allows them, and you're a good example, to simply deny or ignore all the evidence of their danger and the damage they're doing to our society.
Some would say the mystical power of the brutality of football over football fans is a danger to society. Or violent video games. Or the murder of the unborn. Or climate change hysteria. Or a half dozen other things that have a mystical power over Democrats / Trump haters.
We'll just ignore this irrelevant flow of consciousness response. The facts seem to indicate that handling and firing guns provides a sense of pleasure and reward in many people. The specific physiological responses are many and varied, but adrenaline and serotonin are definitely involved.
My point is that I don't believe a free society can be maintained if many of its people so much take it for granted, that they have no concern for increasing apathy in their fellow citizens, who could be blind to the forces that want to destroy everyone's freedom, as has happened numerous times in world history.
When I said I don't watch TV news, you said, "Then you're very uninformed about what's actually going on," in Message 1012. You began by talking about my knowledge of what's going on in the world, but you argued that it was important to get it from TV news because that's how most people get their news, and suddenly you had shifted to that as the topic. That was not the topic, and it doesn't matter how well I understand how much the general public knows. If "man in the street" style interviews are any indication, on average they know and understand little but have very strong opinions nonetheless.
People who get their news from sources other than or in addition to TV are generally better informed. For me, watching TV news would be redundant and a waste of my time.
Now you're just echoing false claims from the New York Post (Murdoch Corporation) and the Washington Times (Sun Myung Moon and the Unification Church) and other conservative media that have little interest in truth and accuracy.
Just like I don't believe the NY Times, Washington Post, and CNN have much interest in truth and accuracy. (and I'm not alone)
Except that you can't support your claims of quality news reporting from the NYP and WT, while I can support mine about the NYT and WP. I again suggest you open a thread on the media.
And more Americans than ever before trust right-wing conspiracy sites. One part of the formula for bringing down a country is to sow distrust in their institutions, among them the news media. It isn't necessary to convince people of lies. It's only necessary to sow confusion and doubt about what is true, and human nature takes care of the rest.
That's why Trump said, "Just say it was corrupt, and leave the rest up to me and Republican congressmen." He didn't want evidence the election was corrupt. He just wanted to sow confusion and doubt about whether it was corrupt. It's been over a year and half since the election, and though Trump is still claiming fraud, evidence anywhere near sufficient to change the outcome is still absent.
Let's keep the discussion anchored in reality. No one besides you is promoting conspiracy theories, including where you accuse others of promoting conspiracy theories.
In response you quote from a website that took a strong pro-Trump turn back in 2017 and accuses Democrats of conspiracy theories I've never heard of let alone that have ever been mentioned by anyone in this thread. It seems that if you want to know what the right is doing, you just look at what they're accusing the left of.
If someone in this thread is promoting conspiracy theories, that's fair game. If you want to discuss Democrat conspiracy theories then open a new thread.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1037 by marc9000, posted 06-18-2022 10:57 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1068 by marc9000, posted 06-27-2022 8:49 PM Percy has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7433
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1063 of 1110 (895438)
06-27-2022 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 1056 by marc9000
06-25-2022 9:27 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
a time when most American males carried guns, and had NO GUN LAWS to obey.
Not true. If you want to provide sources and evidence I will engage. Until then what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1056 by marc9000, posted 06-25-2022 9:27 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1064 by ringo, posted 06-27-2022 1:03 PM Theodoric has replied
 Message 1069 by marc9000, posted 06-27-2022 8:54 PM Theodoric has replied

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 19784
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(3)
Message 1064 of 1110 (895439)
06-27-2022 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 1063 by Theodoric
06-27-2022 12:44 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
Theodoric writes:
marc9000 writes:
a time when most American males carried guns, and had NO GUN LAWS to obey.
Not true. If you want to provide sources and evidence I will engage. Until then what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Gun laws in the "Wild West":
quote
"Tombstone had much more restrictive laws on carrying guns in public in the 1880s than it has today,” says Adam Winkler, a professor and specialist in American constitutional law at UCLA School of Law. “Today, you're allowed to carry a gun without a license or permit on Tombstone streets. Back in the 1880s, you weren't.” Gun Control Is as Old as the Old West

"I call that bold talk for a one-eyed fat man!"
-- Lucky Ned Pepper

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1063 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2022 12:44 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1065 by Theodoric, posted 06-27-2022 1:10 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 7433
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.8


(1)
Message 1065 of 1110 (895440)
06-27-2022 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 1064 by ringo
06-27-2022 1:03 PM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
In actuality throughout our history very few men carried guns or used them. The US Calvary was renowned for its incompetence with firearms during the Indian Wars.

What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1064 by ringo, posted 06-27-2022 1:03 PM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
marc9000
Member
Posts: 1314
From: Ky U.S.
Joined: 12-25-2009


Message 1066 of 1110 (895442)
06-27-2022 8:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1060 by Percy
06-26-2022 11:59 AM


Re: Our Well Regulated Militia
This is a gun control thread.
Yes. So most of this message of yours is about things other than gun control. I guess I'll keep this message of mine focused on the gun control things.
I think you should open a thread about the media and take all your complaints there.
It would be a lot of fun especially now, considering all the rioting that went on this past weekend was reported as "mostly peaceful" by the mainstream media. (Fox News showed a montage of those claims this evening, before showing all the fires and beating on windows and property damage and arrests for attempted murder of policemen, etc.) But everyone knows how biased the mainstream media is, there are tons of links that prove it. But my starting a thread would result in me being called names by a dozen or more posters here, and fending it off would be a full time job. I can't do a full time job here, the pay isn't too good.
This is finally something closer to the thread's topic, though I know nothing about how armed most federal agencies are.
That's clear, most gun controllers don't. They're not concerned with incremental threats of government tyranny, it doesn't happen anymore. That only happened in the past, early 1930's Germany, many other examples. Governments are angelic now, they only care about us.
What did you think of the vid I showed above, of a government supplied bulldozer smashing hundreds of useful motorcycles and ATV's? They were confiscated from crooks, they belonged to the government, and I can even understand if they're declared unavailable for registration and further use. But they could have been auctioned, either in a complete lot or individually, to salvage dealers to part them out.
From that link;
quote
The mayor said the city chose to destroy the dirt bikes rather than sell or donate them because it keeps them off the street permanently.
So HE knows better than the public what should be "kept off the streets". Though I can't understand it, I can clearly see that he enjoyed that. Tyrants seem to enjoy seeing useful property destroyed. I don't see evidence that tyrants of today, versus tyrants of the past, have different characteristics, that gun controlling politicians and bureaucrats are no more sweet and kind and caring today than those of the recent past or long past.
What does this have to do with gun control? You'll notice that Ringo, and his green dot providers have no problem with antique cars also being crushed by government. They must have hobbies that don't include antique cars, that they think are no threat to the environment, and they have no fear of government crushers coming after them next. More likely, they have no hobbies at all. I see evidence of lots of people like that, they eat, sleep, sit on their ass, seek entertainment, and do as little work as possible, and burn with jealousy of people who achieve things, like owners of antique cars.
They might even like to get in on that destruction. They shouldn't try it yet, gun owners of antique cars might not approve.
marc9000 writes:
One of the forum rules says something about "bare assertions". I don't mind bare assertions, if they are logical. Your bare assertion isn't logical. Do you have any links, any proof, that the public is cool with the IRS being heavily armed? Or you think that Matt Gaetz and I are the only ones who wonder about this? And what they believe they need ammo for?

Matt Gaetz, he of allegations of cocaine snorting and sex trafficking and shacking up with a 17-year-old girl and of showing images of girls he'd slept to Republican colleagues on the House floor, and of his legal troubles forcing him to let his law license lapse in Florida since it likely would not have been renewed anyway, is not exactly a font of truth.
Let's see, in one of your off-topic statements above, did you say something about "poisoning the wells"? (I love this place)
Enhancing background checks for gun buyers, part of the new legislation, is good. The rest of the bill, which incentivizes "red flag" laws and provides financial assistance for mental health and school safety, is like spitting in the wind: useless and pointless. Including dating partners as potential domestic abusers was the only other good thing.
Yes I know, gun control measures are NEVER enough.
I find name calling deplorable, mainly because it demonstrates such laziness. If someone has trouble with facts and logic then just say so while citing specific examples. Calling him an idiot is just lazy.
Calling HIM and idiot? Could you have worded that a little differently, or are you trying to make it look like I'm the one doing the name calling? Or are you calling Theodoric and AZPaul lazy?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1060 by Percy, posted 06-26-2022 11:59 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1070 by ringo, posted 06-27-2022 8:54 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 1071 by AZPaul3, posted 06-27-2022 9:37 PM marc9000 has not replied
 Message 1075 by Percy, posted 06-28-2022 3:18 PM marc9000 has replied

  
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