Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 57 (9189 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: Michaeladams
Post Volume: Total: 918,952 Year: 6,209/9,624 Month: 57/240 Week: 0/72 Day: 0/9 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   What's the difference between Islam and Radical Islam?
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 8 of 148 (799700)
02-13-2017 3:10 PM


A very tough question even for an honest investigator.
Islam seems to have been quite intolerant (overall) of non-Christians, non-Jews, non-Muslims, but (on the other hand)not so bad when compared to the Catholics and Martin Luther's "Protestant" followers.
BUT WARNING, don't take anybody's word for it. Don't even take my word for it (as honest as I am) because it is a multi(-million) layered (historical!) issue that is super complicated and requires a lot of study - which almost nobody, including myself, has done.
Follow the WARNING and don't ever fail to do so.
This is really a historical issue.
I said H-I-S-T-O-R-I-C-A-L
Always remember just how full of crap historians are; even mainstream historians are ignorant or stupid. They just haven't done the work. EXAMPLE: How many times have you heard about how Constantine brought freedom of worship to Christians? The historians always say that pre-Constantine Christians had a rough time and post-Constantine Christians had freedom. It's a myth that has a Catholic/Protestant bias to it (history is written by the winners and they are indeed the "winners") The irony is that even Catholic scholarship will at times let the truth slip. here is an example from the Catholic Encyclopedia.
quote:
CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Marcionites
Marcionite martyrs are not infrequently referred to in Eusebius' "Church History" (IV.15; IV.46; V.16; V.21; VII.12). Their number and influence seem always to have been less in the West than in the East, and in the West they soon died out. Epiphanius, however, testifies that in the East in A.D. 374 they had deceived "a vast number of men" and were found, "not only in Rome and Italy but in Egypt, Palestine, Arabia, Syria, Cyprus and the Thebaid and even in Persia". And Theodoret, Bishop of Cyrus in the Province of the Euphrates from 423 to 458, in his letter to Domno, the Patriarch of Antioch, refers with just pride to having converted one thousand Marcionites in his scattered diocese. Not far from Theodoret's diocese, near Damascus, an inscription was found of a Marcionite church, showing that in A.D. 318-319 Marcionites possessed freedom of worship (Le Boss and Waddington, "Inscr. Grec.", Paris, 1870). Constantine (Eusebius, "Vita", III, lxiv) forbade all public and private worship of Marcionism.
As for Islam, which is an issue in its own right, it is very complicated and difficult question when it comes to tolerance issues. You have to look at its history while attempting to answer the question. Look at the history outright (and understand that it is difficult, if not impossible, to find a decent treatment of the issue that is broad enough in all the areas it looks at), then hope you can come to a decent history of theological interpretation of the Islamic sacred texts.
Look at how Islam treated non-Christians, non-Jews. Zoroastrians, Hindus, and Manicheans are important world religions. Here is a source on Zoroastrians and their treatment.
ZOROASTRIANISM ii. Arab Conquest to Modern — Encyclopaedia Iranica
Looking at religions respective prophecy/eschatology (in their texts) might tell some stories that are relevant to this puzzle.
ESCHATOLOGY — Encyclopaedia Iranica
(has links to:
i. In Zoroastrianism and Zoroastrian Influence.
ii. Manichean Eschatology.
iii. Imami shi’ism.
iv. In Babism and Bahaism. )
But all of these issues are just pieces of the puzzle. They might not be the best places to start looking. But one has to see how they actually treated the minorities before one can start to understand anything.
Never ever listen to a Christian fundamentalist on this issue though. I have never talked to a Muslim hating fundamentalist (in person) who has even heard of (for example) Zoroastrians. Even the ones that present themselves as experts are ignorant as heck's hell.

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 28 of 148 (801606)
03-08-2017 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Faith
03-08-2017 5:07 AM


Please explain something Faith.
quote:
The Wahhabis, and now ISIS is the true inheritor of true Islam, resurrected the Califate which had lasted 1400 years, ending in 1924. Saudi oil and the Ayatollah Khomeini resurrected it. ISIS is its latest form.
The Ayatollah Khomeini part caught my attention as it needs some explanation from you to lump it in with the others.
The Shi'a have a view of a hidden Imam.
quote:
Shi'a belief[edit]
Main articles: Succession to Muhammad, Shia Islam, and Imamah (Shia doctrine)
The Shia believe in the Imamate, a principle by which rulers are Imams who are divinely chosen, infallible, and sinless and must come from the Ahl al-Bayt regardless of majority opinion, shura or election. They claim that before his death, Muhammad had given many indications, in the hadith of the pond of Khumm in particular, that he considered Ali, his cousin and son-in-law, as his successor. For the Twelvers, Ali and his eleven descendants, the twelve Imams, are believed to have been considered, even before their birth, as the only valid Islamic rulers appointed and decreed by God.
Main article: Islamic Government: Governance of the Jurist
After these Twelve Imams, the potential Caliphs, had passed, and in the absence of the possibility of a government headed by their Imams, some Twelvers believe it was necessary that a system of Shi'i Islamic government based on the Guardianship of the Islamic Jurist be developed, due to the need for some form of government, where an Islamic jurist or faqih rules Muslims, suffices. However this idea, developed by the marja' Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini and established in Iran, is not universally accepted among the Shia.
Ismailis believe in the Imamate principle mentioned above, but they need not be secular rulers as well.
The Nizari continue to have a living Imam; the current Imam is the Aga Khan.
The Taiyabi Ismaili have, since the year 1130, followed the Imam's chief officer, the Dai al-Mutlaq, as they believe the Imams are in a state of hiding.
Caliphate - Wikipedia
Google&*
This concept should be familiar to you. Remember the issue of Elijah? Remember how the Gospel of John saw the Baptist get asked if he was Elijah. He said he wasn't but then said that "One" will come after him.
quote:
The Oxford Bible Commentary - Page 964 - Google Books Result
isbn:0199277184 - Google Search
John Barton, ‎John Muddiman - 2007 - ‎Religion
If the expression after me comes a man alludes to Elijah, Jesus is considered as the hidden Elijah, who already existed before the Baptist. But the latter also underlines Jesus' pre-existence (cf.
...
Here is what the Encyclopedia Iranica article said.
quote:
In Imamism the eschatological savior is Abu’l-Qāsem Moḥammad b. Ḥasan al-ʿAskarī, the twelfth and last Imam of the Twelvers, usually called by one of his many titles: al-mahdī (the rightly guided), al- montaẓar (the awaited), ṣāḥeb al-zamān (lord of the age), al-ḡāʾeb (the hidden), al-ḥojja/ḥojjat Allāh (the proof [of God]), ṣāḥeb al-amr (lord of the cause), ṣāḥeb al-ḥaqq (lord of the truth), baqīyat Allāh (the remnant of God), and most often al-qāʾem (he who will rise, he who will raise, or the resurrector; on this last term and its different meanings, see Nawbaḵtī, pp. 90 ff.; Qomī, pp. 102 ff.; Sachedina, 1981, passim; Madelung, EI2 IV, pp. 456-57). The date traditionally given for his birth is 15 aʿbān 256/18 July 870. At the death of his father, the eleventh Imam, in 260/874 he entered his first, or lesser, occultation (al-ḡayba al-ṣoḡrā),
....
The religious cause. The Qāʾem will come to reestablish the lost sense of the sacred. He will first reestablish Islam in its original purity and integrity. Other religions (specifically Judaism and Christianity), equally abandoned and distorted, will also be restored to their original truth. It is said in fact that the Mahdi will bring all the holy books of the past out from the cavern where they are hidden and will apply their precepts among their respective followers (Ebn Bābūya Ṣadūq, 1405/1985, pp. 342 ff.; Ebn ʿAyyā, pp. 181 ff.). According to some traditions, this cavern is located at Antioch, information probably originally based on a Hadith reported by Kaʿb al-Aḥbār and circulated by Maṭar b. Ṭahmān (see above). In their essential truth these religions are identical with Islam, and it is doubtless in this sense that claims that the Mahdi will impose Islam on all the inhabitants of the earth are to be understood. According to some rare traditions, the Qāʾem will introduce a new order, a new book, a new law, a new sunna (Noʿmānī, pp. 336, 368, 372), which seems to indicate a new religion abrogating Islam and a new book abrogating the Koran (a belief of Qarmaṭian origin, according to Nawbaḵtī, p. 88).
....
Imamism inherited a number of elements, including eschatological elements, from its predecessors, for example, the ancient Iranian religions and heterodox Judeo-Christian sects of the first centuries of the Common Era;
That was the Iranica Imami Shi'a eschatology article. I linked weeks ago.
Don't forget the Manichean influence.
quote:
ESCHATOLOGY ii. Manichean Eschatology
ESCHATOLOGY
ii. Manichean Eschatology
Manichean eschatology, teachings about final things, provided information on what happened during and after the death of a single human being and also on what would happen before and at the end of this world. These two aspects were, however, less discernible than in other religions such as Christianity and Zoroastrianism. Teaching about the transmigration of the soul, peculiar to Manicheism, linked the fates of the unredeemed majority of individuals after death with the judgment at the end of time.
....
A meager representation of eschatological circumstances, with several unique or supplementary features, is also to be found in fragment M 35 of the Parthian Ārdahang wifrās, from which W. B. Henning has published the description of the great fire on the reverse side (1943-46, pp. 71-72). On the obverse the text is about the kingdom of Christ (called Jesus and not Xradiahr) and provides chronological information and the announcement that under Jesus’ reign the last dwellers in the world will leave this earth: . . . vanishes, and belief is sent down to man. Tenth: Jesus’ (yyw) wounds will be shown to every one of them. Eleventh: The elect (dēnāvarān) will decide for themselves to leave their bodies (izgām). Twelfth: They will be without sadness, without cold, without heat, and without desire, because, while the angels will col(lect and?) purify the whole world before him, as [. . .] and a royal palace, [when] the ruler comes. And Christ (myhʾ) will remain with the elect 120 years. And the world will remain empty of inhabitants for 100 years. Tree(s). . .
....
From the text of both the Coptic homily and the Middle Persian ābuhragān the massive influence of Christian apocalyptic is clear. The example of the judgment pericope (Matthew 25:31-46) has already been cited; it was also assimilated in characteristic fashion to the understanding of Manichean docetic christology (Asmussen, p. 86). As Koenen has systematically shown, however, many other New Testament citations and motifs can be identified, from the Revelation of John (Koenen, 1986, pp. 300-301, 303-5) and in one instance from the Gospel of Mark (12:36) in Manichean reinterpretation: A promise said in the Gospel to have been made by Christ was attributed to primal man by the Manicheans (Koenen, 1986, p. 307). The synoptic apocalypse Jesus played an especially large role among these sources (cf. Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21); a small piece of it has now been found in the Manichean Otani fragment 6152, the contents of which can be compared with Mark 13:9-11 and Luke 21:12-14. Of Christian origin also must be such an essential part of the Manichean apocalypse as the rule of Christ at the end of time (cf. Revelation 19-20). That all the relevant passages were incorporated from the canonical Gospels is very improbable.
For the judgment pericope, Jes Asmussen has demonstrated dependence upon the Diatessaron or another, similar, harmonizing text that no longer survives (pp. 86-87). The millennial kingdom of Christ is also an established part of such apocryphal writings as the Gospel of Elias and the oracle of Hystaspes, which was interpreted in a Christian sense by Lactantius (Koenen, 1986, p. 310). In the latter text the great king of heaven is glossed as Christ. In the Manichean version he duplicates the Christ figure. Koenen supposed convincingly that it was in Jewish Christian (Elkesaite) circles that this literature was cultivated and that Mani was entrusted with it (Koenen, 1986, pp. 310-14, 332). On the role of the Antichrist one must turn especially to the Apocalypse of Elias (La Bible, pp. 1803-24).
Koenen also recognized, however, an indirect influence of the Egyptian apocalypse on Manichean teaching about the end of time. The most convincing example is the previously unexplained duration of the world fire of 1,468 years, that is, a Sothis period of 1,461 years plus a year week of seven years (Koenen, 1986, pp. 314, 321-26).
ESCHATOLOGY ii. Manichean Eschatology — Encyclopaedia Iranica
Influence from Christianity and Elijah Christian apocalyptic texts are evident.
How much would you say the Shi'a have in common with Christian views verses Sunni views?
Where are the parallels?
Please parse it all for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Faith, posted 03-08-2017 5:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 65 of 148 (801741)
03-09-2017 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by PaulK
03-09-2017 3:50 AM


Faith doesn't know basic WW2 history.
She is making an issue of Arabs supporting Germany, but forgets that the entire Middle East saw Germany as the enemy of the British Empire - which was splitting the entire Middle East up. It actually happened just after 1920 or 1921. Arabs came to dislike the British and French and like the Germans over the issue of borders not being imposed. Woodrow Wilson was pro- Middle easterner as well. Against the colonial imposed borders.
Also, Ephraim Stern was shot by the Brits during World War 2 (and his gang) because they shot "Nazi" collaborators on the spot. The Brits were surrounded by Vichey French forces/"nations" (what became todays Syria and Lebanon) and the predecessor to Benjamin Netanyahu's party were Pro Nazi Germany.
Faith is ignorant of the fact that her side (right wing Israelis) were Pro Nazi.
(Like she is ignorant of the fact that The Shi'a Caliphate is little more than a metaphysical/eschatological belief in a Hidden Imam)
SEE:
SHIITE DOCTRINE — Encyclopaedia Iranica
quote:
SHIʿITE DOCTRINE
....
One could say that Shiʿism developed around a two-fold vision of the world (weltanshauung). Let us examine how the figure of the imam, in his different dimensions, is omnipresent there and acts as a veritable centre of gravity.
(1) Dual vision. All reality possesses at least two levels: one manifest, apparent, exoteric (ẓher), and another non-manifest/inner, secret, esoteric (bṭen), hidden beneath the apparent level and able to consist of other levels still further hidden (bṭen al-bṭen). This dialectic of the apparent and the hidden, the exoteric and esoteric, distinct but nonetheless interdependent, constitutes a fundamental, omnipresent credo. It is at work in the different spheres of faith (Amir-Moezzi, 1997).
....
In turn, the cosmic Imam possesses an apparent level and a hidden dimension. His esoteric, his unrevealed aspect, is precisely his metaphysical aspect, cosmic, in the sky according to an expression from one of the oldest sources (e.g. Ṣaffr, pp. 107-8; Fort, 374; Ebn Bbawayh, 1958, pp. 110-11). His exoteric, his apparent level, his place of manifestation - these are the historical imams of the different cycles in sacred History (Ṣaffr, pp. 61-66; Ebn Bbawayh, 1985, chap. 22). Here we are already dealing with prophetology.
Indeed for Shiʿites, each great prophet, each messenger of God, is accompanied in his mission by one or many imams: from Adam, the First Man and prophet, to Moḥammad, the seal of legislative prophethood, having followed Noah, Abraham, Joseph, Solomon, Moses and Jesus among others. Moreover, these different cycles, these great messengers and their imams are interlinked by an uninterrupted chain of minor prophets, imams and saints that together constitute the great family of the Friends of God (wali, pl. awliyʾ Allh), those who bear and transmit Divine Friendship or Alliance (walya), (Pseudo (?) —Masʿudi, passim; Amir-Moezzi, 1993, pp. 319-20), a key term in all of Shiʿite doctrine to which we return shortly. These are the places of manifestation of the archetypal cosmic Imam, his revealed face. In Imami Shiʿism, the awliy par excellence are the group of the Fourteen Impeccable Ones: Moḥammad, his daughter Fṭema and the twelve imams.
Also see:
ISLAM IN IRAN x. THE ROOTS OF POLITICAL SHII — Encyclopaedia Iranica
quote:
ISLAM IN IRAN x. THE ROOTS OF POLITICAL SHIʿISMs
ISLAM IN IRAN
3. Islamic Political Movements
A series of articles on Political Islam in Iran can be viewed in two categories: One, consisting of Roots of Political Shiʿism, Jihad in Islam, and Martyrdom in Islam, examine the historical and theological antecedents of modern Islamic political ideas.
The above entries will thus facilitate a deeper understanding of contemporary Islamic political movements, which are then discussed in detail in the following six entries: Islamic Movements in 20th Century Iran, Islam and Democracy, Islam amd Socialism, Islam and Fundamentalism, Islamic Revolution of 1977-79, and Islamic Republic of Iran.
x. THE ROOTS OF POLITICAL SHIʿISM
By political Shiʿism we mean here the politicization of theological and legal doctrines of Twelver Shiʿism among some thinkers, often motakallem and/or faqih, in certain specific historical contexts, in order to make of these doctrines an ideology of legitimization of religious authority and power
Also
ISLAM IN IRAN xiii. ISLAMIC POLITICAL MOVEMENT — Encyclopaedia Iranica
quote:
ISLAM IN IRAN xiii. ISLAMIC POLITICAL MOVEMENTS IN 20TH CENTURY IRAN
ISLAM IN IRAN
xiii. ISLAMIC POLITICAL MOVEMENTS IN 20TH CENTURY IRAN
New Islamic political movements first emerged in the Near East, the Indian Subcontinent, and Indonesia in the middle of the 19th century in response to European imperial expansion and encounter with European intellectual currents, social values, political thought, and technological advances. They represented, at least in part, the weakness of Islamic societies in resisting Western encroachment and its accompanying modes of modernity. A variety of religious responses and political ideologies emerged in this context with pro-democracy, fundamentalist, and socialist tendencies each having an elective affinity with the interests of different social classes and strata. These movements paved the way for subsequent Islamic movements that emerged in early 20th century Iran and in other Islamic societies, and have continued to the present time (for earlier Muslim reactions to and engagements with Western political influences, ideologies, and modernity, see Hairi, 1988; see also Hourani, pp. 57-160; for a comparative treatment of these broad categories of Islamic ideologies, see Enayat, pp. 93-159).
Also is an article on the 1953 coup
COUP D’ETAT OF 1332 ./1953 — Encyclopaedia Iranica
quote:
COUP D’ETAT OF 1332 ./1953
COUP D’ETAT OF 1332 ./1953. The appointment of Moḥammad Moṣaddeq (q.v.) as prime minister of Persia on 9 Ordbehet 1330 ./29 April 1951 and the nationalization two days later of Persia’s British-owned oil industry initiated a period of tense confrontation between the Persian and British governments. It lasted until the overthrow of Moṣaddeq in the coup d’etat of 28 Mordd 1332 ./19 August 1953, which was conceived by MI6 [the British Intelligence Service] and delivered by CIA (Wright, p. 259).
Context is important but Faith seems just plain ignorant.
I recently read in the nation an article, from an expert, saying that Iran is a MODERATE Islamic state. I always thought so. I need to find the author's name (my issue isn't on me right now) but it was the same issue that Jeffrey Sachs talked about our $900 billion military budget and the CIA actions against the world. Like January 17 (?) 2017 or something.
Here is an article I found on goggle.
How Iran Became the Middle East's Moderate Force | The National Interest
It isn't from the same author tough

This message is a reply to:
 Message 64 by PaulK, posted 03-09-2017 3:50 AM PaulK has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 03-09-2017 12:00 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 67 of 148 (801748)
03-09-2017 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by Faith
03-09-2017 12:00 PM


Re: Faith doesn't know basic WW2 history.
quote:
Funny then that Muslims themselves talk about reestablishing the Caliphate, preach about it in Europe on one of the videos I linked, threatning tht Europe will become part of it.; Funny how the 1400 year domination of most of Europe and the Middle East is referred to as the Caliphate.
What Muslims?
We support the Saudi Arabian bombing in Yemen, and it is brutal.
Yemen is 40% Shi'a and we/Saudi Arabia/USA seem to be annoyed by that, so we are bombing (seemingly) based on that.
Would the Shi'a in Yemen support this Caliphate you keep b.s.-ing about?
Bahrain just became majority Shi'a but we support the brutal crackdown by the Sunni government we love so much.
The parts of Saudi Arabia that have all the oil are 80% Shi'a, but we let the Saudi government get all the oil revenue. We (America/British) invented the stinking borders!
You support endless political meddling it seems.
Look at the context, and see that everything might become clearer as to why there are angry forces in the Middle East.
What about the Shi'a Faith?
And the Caliphate?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Faith, posted 03-09-2017 12:00 PM Faith has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 138 of 148 (802055)
03-11-2017 5:06 PM


Allah as the moongod sin is a western urban legend
I think Josephus said that Abraham worshiped the moon God when he lived in southern Tigris EuphraoveR. This phonewon'tt let me spell the old Semitic spelling of Babylon but it has the word IL in it. Also see MARI documents for President pre Hebrew spelling of Hebrew names with god initially like Ishark spell dictator on phone won't let me spell Ishmael YES got it Also Shia have something of a holy spirit in Jesus called NURalMuhamadi.. Or Light of Muhammad and it is something like a baptism adoption offshoot SShe online is killing me by changing my words phone is killing me

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 9:11 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 139 of 148 (802056)
03-11-2017 5:52 PM


To Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. Muslim's JESUS was Caliph
Faith refuses to comment on the fact that there is effectively 100 percent opposition to a present caliphate among this group. This will be ignored though she attempted to make Iran an issue earlier

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 9:11 PM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 142 of 148 (802072)
03-11-2017 10:04 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Faith
03-11-2017 9:11 PM


Re: To Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, etc. Muslim's JESUS was Caliph
This friends phone that I use, though bigger and easier to use than my own, constantly erases multiple words at once that I already typed so posting istough. I have a hard time typing ShiSShiashiia so I better not try. I can call them Shia this time yes. Anyway they are the majority in Iran and Iraq plus they October the Sunni in Lebanon by about 3 to 2. They 100 percent oppose the Caliphate. The last possible Caliph they could support was VANISHED over 1000 years ago. See Fatimid Caliphate. They await his return and it must be him. That's my take. YYoursis what

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 9:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 6:01 AM LamarkNewAge has not replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 143 of 148 (802075)
03-11-2017 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Faith
03-11-2017 9:11 PM


Re: Allah as the moongod sin is a western urban legend
What wAs the spelling for GOD in the Mari texts. See the name Ishmael as it was spelled in the amorite personal names quoted by akkadian writers in cuneiform which has vowels. El or IL or AL I Forget but Arabic Ishmael has IL Edit,,,,, I found out that the Mari spelling is YasmachEL but I was wondering if you had any theories considering your obsession with the word
Edited by LamarkNewAge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Faith, posted 03-11-2017 9:11 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 6:03 AM LamarkNewAge has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member
Posts: 2497
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 146 of 148 (802374)
03-15-2017 8:21 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by Faith
03-12-2017 6:03 AM


Re: Allah as the moongod sin is a western urban legend
One point is the amorites worship of El in the 18th century BCE which seemed to be an issue to you. Additionally, Babylon in Hebrew is BAB EL or "gate of God" which is BAB IL(u) in Akkadian. IL was the Arabic word for God until the defenite article AL altered the word THE GOD as the standard for simplHaHaHavike God like HA ELOHIM in Hebrew is not translated as The God but simply God. You made the issue of it though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by Faith, posted 03-12-2017 6:03 AM Faith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024