Why do you have to write such long posts, Mod? They risk getting unread you know.
I mean if you're worried about children being molested shouldn't you worry about that happening to boys in the men's room rather than by female-identified males in the women's room?
This is on the best points I've seen made on this topic. Bravo.
I understand what you've been through here so I assure you that that was sincere, it was not sarcasm. That is a great point, well made.
Thank you. It seems obvious to me and an indicator that there is a lot of confusion on this subject.
So what is the worry? Are they worried about predators taking advantage of the law and POSING as gay to get access to children or something like that?
Depends who 'they' are.
The politicians aren't. They want to convince their voters of this, and it is working a bit. But it is a bit of a misfire, especially based on the evidence of your perspective.
It's the same plays the hateful have used against blacks and gays but which have been defeated.
I'd really like to see more understanding of the perspective of ordinary people who are freaked out by militant campaigns to change their familiar experiences. Even the politicians who are making these new laws don't seem to have a real grasp of the realities. I don't think it's about hate and bigotry, I think it's about feeling forced to accept something totally strange that seems threatening.
He may be primping at the women's room mirror but nevertheless feeling attracted to the women in there? How does that get sorted out?
The same as when gay men use the men's bathroom and gay women use women's bathroom and bisexual people use either.
Yes, that's true, and I realized it later. No issue there.
Are they just not imagining the actual situation or is there a problem I'm not grasping?
Your astonishment is equal to the astonishment you have seen from the left regarding refusing to bake cakes for gay weddings.
From my point of view the situations are completely different. The status of marriage in the Bible is sacrosanct, it's not just a matter of sinners being sinners, it's a matter of forcing us to oppose God's law by actively supporting a social structure the Bible condemns. It isn't about homosexuality as such at all, it's about marriage, and if nobody understands it but a certain group of Bible believers, still we have to refuse to serve gay marriage according to our understanding of the Bible.
But we are not required to oppose sin because we're all sinners. Cross-dressing is sin, homosexual acts are sin, but so are heterosexual acts outside of marriage, so is divorce etc., so are all kinds of things people do all the time that would break the system if you tried to make them into crimes. Everybody would be in prison or hung on the scaffold.
So the question about restrooms from the Christian or conservative point of view isn't about violating a Biblical ordinance, it's about whether there is any actual problem or danger to society in general, or to nonLGBTs, by allowing people to use whatever facility they fit into, which seems to be the reason for the laws attempting to prevent it. I think the general peace of society would be better served by backing off this one. There is no real threat, no real danger, and it's just a matter of this being recognized. If I'm wrong I guess I'll find out eventually.
I'm not trying to persuade you, but maybe you can use this to build empathy with your opponents?
All I can do is express my opinion. If it builds empathy, great, if it doesn't I can't help it.
I certainly understand people not wanting all this gender confusion being imposed on us
It's not being imposed though is it? It's just a fact about humans that we have to learn how to deal with. Most of the burden of dealing with it has historically been placed on the transgendered.
But people who have no experience of these things do experience it as having something strange and dangerous imposed on them out of the blue. In the case of gay marriage the law IS imposing on Christians and putting us in an untenable position. I don't think the restroom situation is similar but nevertheless people who are unfamiliar with all these things do feel it as something alien being forced on them. Those who have lived with the social ostracism have no sympathy for them, don't really care what they do to the rest of society because they consider themselves unjustly treated, but it would help a lot to try to get a bigger picture in spite of all that.
They were ostracized, denied lifesaving medical care, attacked, raped etc., etc., with little consequences to the perpetrators.
Yes, and now you are out for blood and don't care what you do to society as a whole.
Now people are increasingly agreeing that this is a terrible way to deal with the facts. This terrifies the right who want to codify laws as a way to extend the hate.
It is very few who express that sort of hatred, the rest are confused and fearful.
I've been thinking more of the laws that favor the LGBTs rather than the laws trying to stop it. The pictures Rhain posted show people anyone would take for the sex they WANT to be so why do you need a law to give them permission to use the restroom of their choice?
Empathy mode. Let's imagine you are transgender and you and your friends spontaneously visit a restaurant, cafe or bar. You go to use the toilet that matches your gender, but is at odds with the sex you were assigned at birth. The manager says you can't. Now you have to use a toilet that feels wrong or leave.
You've been embarrassed, been personally insulted (if someone denied you service because they questioned your femininity, you'd be upset), and now you have to cut the social event short or potentially put your safety at risk (I can tell you from personal experience that going into a man's restroom when you look like a girl is a terrifying experience in some places).
I do understand this, and I think it is mostly a matter of getting it across. When all we hear is that there is a law proposed that wants to change who can use what restroom, and have no understanding of what that would entail in reality, and nobody is bothering to try to explain it, just getting all accusatory about bigotry and hate and discrimination, you ought to recognize that a lot of people are likely to freak out and for good reason.
Wouldn't it make life better if people could go to new places without having research their policy towards irrelevant personal details about them? These 'pro-LGBT' laws are about providing security, confidence, and remedy against hate and bigotry and simple ignorance based discrimination which are harmful to society as a whole.
Again, I think you are blinded by your own personal experience and need to see things more from the other side, which does NOT experience these laws as about a necessary security for some people that does not threaten anybody, and are reacting understandably to being called names and vilified about something they've never given half a thought to before.
This is part of what I'm having a problem with. If you LOOK male why would there be a problem with using the men's room, and same if you LOOK female using the women's room?
As you know, not all transgendered people 'fool' all of the people all of the time. Some transgendered people are clearly gendered differently than their sex.
Sex hormones are powerful, and they leave many clues. Clues that humans are very very adept at spotting. A person that transitions during puberty may be utterly indistinguishable from a person of that sex from birth. A poor person who transitions in their late 30s? That's a big clue. And not all transgendered people opt for sex reassignment, and avoid hormone treatment even if they can afford it.
Well, mount a campaign to clarify all this and stop calling people who don't understand such things bigots and haters.
Your lengthy post is too much for me. If there's more in it I want to respond to I'll have to come back to it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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