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Author
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Topic: Darwin and responsibilty
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 4 of 76 (110770)
05-26-2004 10:06 PM
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Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-26-2004 8:25 PM
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Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
As much as I hate it, Hitler and his other Nazis were very much True Christians and all that they did, all the killing of Jews, the weak, Poles, Gypses and the metally ill, the did in the name of Christianity.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1 by sidelined, posted 05-26-2004 8:25 PM | | sidelined has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 5 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 11:58 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 6 of 76 (110797)
05-27-2004 12:12 AM
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Reply to: Message 5 by almeyda
05-26-2004 11:58 PM
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Re: Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
So would you say that it is not the Christian Doctrine, but rather that people can abuse Christianity and pervert it for their own reasons?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 5 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 11:58 PM | | almeyda has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 8 of 76 (110803)
05-27-2004 12:49 AM
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Reply to: Message 7 by custard
05-27-2004 12:42 AM
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Re: Are you suggesting the holocaust did not occur?
I don't think Almeyda is saying that at all. He is simply still questioning, or concerned by, the fact that such horrors could be committed in the name of Christianity by people that claimed to be, and were recognized as Christians. Unfortunately, there are many other examples of similar behaviour, even here in the US.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 7 by custard, posted 05-27-2004 12:42 AM | | custard has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 16 of 76 (110867)
05-27-2004 10:37 AM
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Reply to: Message 14 by almeyda
05-27-2004 10:13 AM
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Hitler and Christianity????
Probably the best way to determine if Hitler was Christian and working from Christian Beliefs is to look at what he said. In Mien Kapf, he said...
"I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." and in a 1933 speech
Except the Lord built the house they labour in vain.... The truth of that text was proved if one looks at the house of which the foundations were laid in 1918 and which since then has been in building.... The world will not help, the people must help itself. Its own strength is the source of life. That strength the Almighty has given us to use; that in it and through it we may wage the battle of our life.... The others in the past years have not had the blessing of the Almighty-- of Him Who in the last resort, whatever man may do, holds in His hands the final decision. Lord God, let us never hesitate or play the coward, let us never forget the duty which we have taken upon us.... We are all proud that through God's powerful aid we have become once more true Germans. In addition, his rule and Nazi Germany itself was recognized by the Pope and maintained diplomatic relations, including the exchange of Ambassadors. It is nice to say that Christianity accepts everyone as equal, and in my belief, that is certainly correct. Unfortunately, if we look at history and even todays news, what we find is entirely different. Through out history and continuing even today, Christianity has been one of the most intolerant religions on this earth. In the past it was seen in the way we Americans treated the Native Americans, in Australia with the way many of the Aborigines, in the Wars between differing Christian Sects, attitudes surrounding slavery and in the Crusades. Today it can be seen in the venom expressed against Islam or the rantings against those that Christians consider abomniable, for example gays. Someday, hopefully, Christians will begin to testify a belief in all people being equal through their actions.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 14 by almeyda, posted 05-27-2004 10:13 AM | | almeyda has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 22 of 76 (111130)
05-28-2004 11:31 AM
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Reply to: Message 20 by Dr Jack
05-28-2004 7:31 AM
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Re: Hitler and Christianity????
Actually, he was not damning of Christianity, but a vocal supporter of Christianity and the Church. For example, consider this...
The Government, being resolved to undertake the political and moral purification of our public life, are creating and securing the conditions necessary for a really profound revival of religious life.... The National Government regard the two Christian Confessions as the weightiest factors for the maintenance of our nationality. They will respect the agreements concluded between them and the federal States. Their rights are not to be infringed.... It will be the Government's care to maintain honest co-operation between Church and State; the struggle against materialistic views and for a real national community is just as much in the interest of the German nation as in that of the welfare of our Christian faith. The Government of the Reich, who regard Christianity as the unshakable foundation of the morals and moral code of the nation, attach the greatest value to friendly relations with the Holy See and are endeavouring to develop them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech to the Reichstag on 23 March 1933
and later in a speech justifying sterilization of the mentally ill or physicall deformed...
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
It would make all Christians feel better if we could somehow simply wave away the very great evils that have been done in its name, but that simply is not possible if we are to be honest. We need to acknowledge those errors and try to make sure nothing like that ever happens again. It is not Darwin or Evolution or Religion that is responsible, it is evil people.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 20 by Dr Jack, posted 05-28-2004 7:31 AM | | Dr Jack has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 27 of 76 (111148)
05-28-2004 12:38 PM
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Reply to: Message 24 by Dr Jack
05-28-2004 11:44 AM
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Re: Hitler and Christianity????
If you are talking about some embodiment of EVIL, then I might agree. But I do believe that there are truly evil people. I will certainly grant though that very ordinary people can also do very great evil.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 24 by Dr Jack, posted 05-28-2004 11:44 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 28 of 76 (111149)
05-28-2004 12:46 PM
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Reply to: Message 25 by Dr Jack
05-28-2004 11:52 AM
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Re: Apologists
There have always been many that would like to absolve Christianity of stains such as Hitler. But in all honesty, we cannot. As a Christian, I believe that we must see and acknowledge both the good and bad that is done in the name of our religion. Anything less simply cheapens our faith. We must realize that much of the acceptance and even justification of Slavery, of what the Americans did to the Native Americans, the Boers to the South African Natives, the Australians to the Aborigines and yes, Hitler to the Jews, Poles, Gypsies and Russians was based on Christian Dogma. Even today, the opposition to Homosexuals is primarily from a small portion of the Christian Faith and based on what I believe are gross misinterpretations of scripture. It would be nice if we, like Pilot, could simply wash our hands of the responsibilities and results of our faith, but that would be dishonest.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 25 by Dr Jack, posted 05-28-2004 11:52 AM | | Dr Jack has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 36 of 76 (111598)
05-30-2004 6:08 PM
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Reply to: Message 35 by Trixie
05-30-2004 6:04 PM
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Re: Simple question
Easy solution. Download to your computer and grep for key strings. Cgrep might be even better or even sed.  
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 35 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 6:04 PM | | Trixie has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 37 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 6:19 PM | | jar has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 38 of 76 (111602)
05-30-2004 6:28 PM
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Reply to: Message 37 by Trixie
05-30-2004 6:19 PM
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Re: Simple question
Trixie, Trixie, Trixie. We have got to drag you into at least this Century, well, maybe the end of the last one would do. Everyone knows that grep is a general regular expression printer while crgep is a context sensitive version of grep. And then sed is simply a stream editor. One of the reasons why Unix is so easy to learn is that the commands all reflect the function they perform except awk which everyone knows was named after Aho, Weinberg and Kernighan and so is patently obvious and dd which should have been cc except that cc was already used and why isn't there an E on creat?
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 37 by Trixie, posted 05-30-2004 6:19 PM | | Trixie has not replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Re: Simple question
It's in Chapter two.
* A writer in the Spectator (March 12, 1871, p. 320) comments as follows on this passage:- "Mr. Darwin finds himself compelled to reintroduce a new doctrine of the fall of man. He shews that the instincts of the higher animals are far nobler than the habits of savage races of men, and he finds himself, therefore, compelled to re-introduce,- in a form of the substantial orthodoxy of which he appears to be quite unconscious,- and to introduce as a scientific hypothesis the doctrine that man's gain of knowledge was the cause of a temporary but long-enduring moral deterioration as indicated by the many foul customs, especially as to marriage, of savage tribes. What does the Jewish tradition of the moral degeneration of man through his snatching at a knowledge forbidden him by his highest instinct assert beyond this?" This is just before Dawin goes into a long discourse on Natural Selection and is a lead in to his discussion of whether there are really different species of humans.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 47 by Chiroptera, posted 06-01-2004 1:03 PM | | Chiroptera has replied |
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jar
Member (Idle past 424 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: 04-20-2004
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Message 72 of 76 (115070)
06-14-2004 12:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 71 by Syamsu
06-14-2004 3:26 AM
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Syamsu writes: But I think the more significant point is that he makes up some sort of pseudosscientific racist religion. Gotta call BS on this. You seem to harken back to Darwin = Nazi time and time again. That is simply silly. Please consider this quote...
It would have been more to the point, more honest and more Christian, in past decades not to support those who intentionally destroyed healthy life than to rebel against those who have no other wish than to avoid disease. Moreover, a policy of laissez faire in this sphere is not only cruelty to the individual guiltless victims but also to the nation as a whole.... If the Churches were to declare themselves ready to take over the treatment and care of those suffering from hereditary diseases, we should be quite ready to refrain from sterilizing them.
-Adolf Hitler, in his speech on 30 Jan. 1934
There you can see the source of eugenics and it is not Darwin, but Christianity. Sorry, but you have been so far unable to support your assertions of Darwin's Responsibility.
Aslan is not a Tame Lion
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 71 by Syamsu, posted 06-14-2004 3:26 AM | | Syamsu has not replied |
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