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Author Topic:   Darwin and responsibilty
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 1 of 76 (110752)
05-26-2004 8:25 PM


I have often picked up on the not so subtle referencing of Darwin in connection with both Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. I am perplexed on 2 issues pertaining to this.
1)Is it somewhere recorded the exact references to Darwin by either of these people?
And
2)how do people at this forum allow such slips in reasoning?
I mean,this is tantamount to drawing the conclusion that those who discover new knowledge and share the results are therefore responsiblefor the use of that knowledge by other human beings even after death. This is the height of illogical and purposeless arguement and I find it offensive that a thinking person can accept such a proposition as being anything of value.
So I would like to see if statements such as this can be defended by anyone in these forums.If in making a case we could be careful to show how the conclusions are arrived at perhaps we could avoid some of the sloppy thinking processes before they begin.
This message has been edited by AdminNosy, 05-26-2004 08:36 PM

"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

Replies to this message:
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 Message 4 by jar, posted 05-26-2004 10:06 PM sidelined has not replied
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 Message 75 by Quibus, posted 11-12-2005 9:55 PM sidelined has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 76 (110765)
05-26-2004 9:37 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 76 (110767)
05-26-2004 9:51 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-26-2004 8:25 PM


I think the evolution/Stalin link is the tawdry argument
evolution -> atheism -> communism -> Stalin
but I'm not sure.
What's interesting is that a superficial understanding of evolution would seem to promote each individual promoting herself at the expense of others - Social Darwinism, in other words, which is the opposite of socialism and communism. In fact, the religious right tries to blame both Social Darwinism and communism on evolution, which seems to be a contradiction to me; especially ironic is that here in the U.S. the religious right supports politicians and social policies that are Social Darwinistic in nature.
The evolution/Hitler link is because Nazism was a bizarre extreme of the already bizarre policy of eugenics. Many eugenicists did in fact claim their inspiration from evolution, although I don't know if the Nazis did. Interesting is that here in the U.S. the Nazis are closely allied with Christian White Supremist movements, which reject evolution in favor of a literal reading of genesis.
Even more interesting is if one were to take evolution as a basis for social policy, then evolution would lead to the opposite of eugenics. No matter what you say about "survival of the fittest", the avowed purpose of eugenics is to "purify" the gene pool, which can only mean leaving only a relatively small amount of variation. But evolution shows that it is those species that have a lot of variation that are able to respond to environmental changes and avoid extinction.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 4 of 76 (110770)
05-26-2004 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by sidelined
05-26-2004 8:25 PM


Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
As much as I hate it, Hitler and his other Nazis were very much True Christians and all that they did, all the killing of Jews, the weak, Poles, Gypses and the metally ill, the did in the name of Christianity.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 76 (110796)
05-26-2004 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jar
05-26-2004 10:06 PM


Re: Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
If indeed they did then they were not being consistent with their christian belief. And with their christian standard of morality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jar, posted 05-26-2004 10:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jar, posted 05-27-2004 12:12 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 7 by custard, posted 05-27-2004 12:42 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 9 by sidelined, posted 05-27-2004 1:17 AM almeyda has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 6 of 76 (110797)
05-27-2004 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by almeyda
05-26-2004 11:58 PM


Re: Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
So would you say that it is not the Christian Doctrine, but rather that people can abuse Christianity and pervert it for their own reasons?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 11:58 PM almeyda has not replied

  
custard
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 76 (110801)
05-27-2004 12:42 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by almeyda
05-26-2004 11:58 PM


Are you suggesting the holocaust did not occur?
Could you please clarify this statement?
quote:
If indeed they did then they were not being consistent with their christian belief. And with their christian standard of morality.
I'm not sure if you are implying there is some doubt as to whether, as stated in the post to which you responded, the nazis killed all those Jews, Russians, Poles, handicapped, and homosexuals;
or are you challenging that the Nazis committed said atrocities in the name of Christianity.
Thanks.
This message has been edited by custard b/c my typing sucks, 05-26-2004 11:44 PM
This message has been edited by custard b/c I can't spell, 05-26-2004 11:44 PM
This message has been edited by custard b/c my UBB is screwed up, 05-26-2004 11:52 PM
This message has been edited by custard, 05-27-2004 12:59 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 11:58 PM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 8 of 76 (110803)
05-27-2004 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by custard
05-27-2004 12:42 AM


Re: Are you suggesting the holocaust did not occur?
I don't think Almeyda is saying that at all. He is simply still questioning, or concerned by, the fact that such horrors could be committed in the name of Christianity by people that claimed to be, and were recognized as Christians.
Unfortunately, there are many other examples of similar behaviour, even here in the US.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by custard, posted 05-27-2004 12:42 AM custard has not replied

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 9 of 76 (110808)
05-27-2004 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by almeyda
05-26-2004 11:58 PM


Re: Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
almeyda
If indeed they did then they were not being consistent with their christian belief. And with their christian standard of morality.
This is an untrue statement since an individuals beliefs are his/her own.Therefore they were being consistent with their christian beliefs. As for a Christian standard of morality would you care to back this up with a rundown of what the "standard of morality" is? Could you also at the same time clarify how you arrive at just what is meant by Christian which is fully acceptable by others who call themselves Christian? It is my impression that no standard is in existence which "defines" a Christian.Without a definition of Christian how can a standard of morality exist that is strictly Christian?
I pointed out in post #1 that I wish to avoid sloppy thinking and I believe this qualifies.

"For the mind of man is far from the nature of clear and equal glass,wherein the beams of things should reflect according to their true incidence;nay,it is rather like an enchanted glass,full of superstition and imposture.if it be not delivered and reduced." Sir Francis Bacon

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by almeyda, posted 05-26-2004 11:58 PM almeyda has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 10 by Denesha, posted 05-27-2004 5:15 AM sidelined has not replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 76 (110827)
05-27-2004 5:15 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by sidelined
05-27-2004 1:17 AM


Re: Well Hitler and the Nazis were very much Christian movements.
I don't think Adolf Hitler was really inspired by Darwin's observations. In many quotes, Hitler refer to "The Lord", "Christians"..., and some think like "I'm doing the Lord's job here". This fairly points his mentality.
There is no doubt that he was xtian and so I suggest that Darwin's ideas were accepted as valid excuses by Hitler to go ahead in his deadly plan. Some details here : Error: 404 Article not found
What's the problem? Hitler was a bad xtian?
He was not the only one.
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 11 of 76 (110831)
05-27-2004 5:52 AM


quote:
So would you say that it is not the Christian Doctrine, but rather that people can abuse Christianity and pervert it for their own reasons?
Yes.
quote:
This is an untrue statement since an individuals beliefs are his/her own.Therefore they were being consistent with their christian beliefs. As for a Christian standard of morality would you care to back this up with a rundown of what the "standard of morality" is? Could you also at the same time clarify how you arrive at just what is meant by Christian which is fully acceptable by others who call themselves Christian? It is my impression that no standard is in existence which "defines" a Christian.Without a definition of Christian how can a standard of morality exist that is strictly Christian?
I pointed out in post #1 that I wish to avoid sloppy thinking and I believe this qualifies.
Well the Bible teaches one blood, one race. Where did Hitler get this christian idea that Germans were the superior race (or whatever his philosophy was) and also the idea that Jews were inferior and needed to be eliminated?. Also Jesus teachings on how to be christian do not give any impression to justify what Hitler did (Galatians 5:16-25). Hitlers thoughts seem to be very more consistent with an evolutionary world were man by himself can determine truth. In Hitlers eyes and many other people may have thought what they were doing was right.

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by Denesha, posted 05-27-2004 6:09 AM almeyda has not replied
 Message 13 by Wounded King, posted 05-27-2004 7:48 AM almeyda has replied
 Message 19 by Chiroptera, posted 05-27-2004 2:48 PM almeyda has replied

  
Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 76 (110834)
05-27-2004 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by almeyda
05-27-2004 5:52 AM


quote:
Where did Hitler get this christian idea that Germans were the superior race?
I can't believe my eyes. Of course he found that in the Bible.
If he was a muslim had the Qu'ran under his eyes, he could have found the same racist purpose. Xtians elitism, one race Xtian and others are infidels.
Don't you dare claim that Darwin wrote such stupidities. I see one quote in your speach who makes me smile: evolutionary world.
You act as a gentle hypocrite, attempting to charge all the responsibility of the WW2 racial exactions on the evolutionist's back.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by almeyda, posted 05-27-2004 5:52 AM almeyda has not replied

  
Wounded King
Member
Posts: 4149
From: Cincinnati, Ohio, USA
Joined: 04-09-2003


Message 13 of 76 (110840)
05-27-2004 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by almeyda
05-27-2004 5:52 AM


Could you clarify where the bible teaches 'one blood, one race'. I seem to recall a lot of different 'peoples' in the bible, including God's chosen people. Why is it then a stretch for someone who considers himself one of God's 'chosen people' to consider people unlike him to be inferior.
Almeyda writes:
In Hitlers eyes and many other people may have thought what they were doing was right.
Do you have any evidence showing that the reasons they thought what they were doing was right was more tightly linked to evolutionary theories than to historically and religiously motivated reasons?
TTFN,
WK

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by almeyda, posted 05-27-2004 5:52 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
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almeyda
Inactive Member


Message 14 of 76 (110863)
05-27-2004 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Wounded King
05-27-2004 7:48 AM


I dont know if Hitler was encouraged by historical or religious events. But i was arguing the point that he was encouraged by christianity as other posts pointed to. And the reason i give the connection to evolution is because evolution gives the world no absolutes whereas the Bible says do not murder among other warnings against hate, violence etc. Therefore if Hitler thought in his mind that what he was doing was right, then he was being consistent with "no absolute of standards". No one can claim other wise. But of course the majority are against him because he caused human suffering etc.
As for your one race, one blood question. Well its obvious the Bible teaches we descended from 2 ancestors. Therefore we are all related back to them. And any difference in races is just due to skin pigment, different characteristics etc. Therefore we are all equal. And no man is superior than any other man because one is white and another is black. (Acts 17:26).

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 15 of 76 (110866)
05-27-2004 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by almeyda
05-27-2004 10:13 AM


quote:
And no man is superior than any other man because one is white and another is black. (Acts 17:26).
What about the "mark of Cain", which was interpreted by many Christians as dark skin?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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