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Author Topic:   Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 1 of 32 (736482)
09-10-2014 4:10 PM


Why was Adam exempt from the transgression when the transgression was disobedience?
"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)
I think that Adam, not being deceived, was more culpable than Eve.
Why then did God favor the guiltiest, Adam, with, --- he shall rule over you?
Men rule over women? Why when men were not deceived but disobeyed?
What was the transgression, --- if not a wise decision to choose knowledge and wisdom and shun immortality of the flesh, --- even if that were possible, --- and why was Adan not punished as hard as Eve when he was clearly more guilty?
Regards
DL

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Omnivorous, posted 09-10-2014 5:26 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2014 11:16 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 7 by Faith, posted 09-10-2014 11:30 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 09-11-2014 1:13 PM Greatest I am has replied
 Message 9 by 1.61803, posted 09-11-2014 2:55 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 10 of 32 (736815)
09-13-2014 3:57 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Taq
09-10-2014 5:35 PM


Tag
You have a point but if the talking serpent or Satan deceived Eve it was because God put it there to do just that. She could not fight the supernatural power that God used against he either through the snake or Satan.
And further, after she ate she had both our human instincts as well as all the knowledge of good and evil, which is more like all the knowledge that can be known, as most everything is subject to good and evil, so she may have done the right thing. Right?
Why leave Adam as bright as a brick?
Regards
DL

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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2014 9:12 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 11 of 32 (736817)
09-13-2014 3:59 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Omnivorous
09-10-2014 5:26 PM


Omnivorous
Perhaps but I hope it is a more complicated reason than male ego.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 12 of 32 (736818)
09-13-2014 4:03 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
09-10-2014 5:39 PM


Re: Another hit-n-run?
Jar
He was exempt from the transgression according to that quote.
I do not know the how. I am asking the why?
I do not like the way it is written because it sort of indicates that the transgression was being deceived and not the disobedience.
I am French and you English might be able to straighten me out.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 13 of 32 (736819)
09-13-2014 4:08 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by NoNukes
09-10-2014 11:16 PM


NoNukes
Interesting take but the quote I put shows that Eve did not disobey and Adam did. Eve was deceived ad I guess that is forgiven. That's why I think she got the raw end of the deal.
If two people rob a bank, the judge does not care who went in first.
Your sexual reference is not biblical and I ignore it.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 09-10-2014 11:16 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2014 9:23 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 14 of 32 (736822)
09-13-2014 4:21 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Faith
09-10-2014 11:30 PM


Faith
The West does give women more equality than the East but we still have a long way to go till women have full equality.
I agree that religious men are not the only one's to blame for women's oppression and that all societies are. But do not forget that the majority rules and the majority has been men in the Abrahamic religion in the West and Middle East.
----------------
That was an interesting quote you gave.
"By one man sin entered the world."
Please compare it to this one and opine on which is wrong, mine or yours.
Ecclesiasticus Chapter 25;24 Of the woman came the beginning of sin, and through her we all die.
""He had the authority and therefore the responsibility, besides also the greater sin because he wasn't deceived."
I agree and stated that so why was he given the lesser punishment and rewarded with dominion over Eve?
And why did God stupidly put Satan or a supernatural talking snake right there where Eve was?
I have heard it was to test them but that would be stupid for an God to do when he already knows the outcome to everything.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 15 of 32 (736825)
09-13-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by ringo
09-11-2014 1:13 PM


ringo
I do not care what God agrees with. I do care that you might agree given the story.
I think Adam more culpable. Do you agree or not?
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by ringo, posted 09-11-2014 1:13 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 16 of 32 (736826)
09-13-2014 4:25 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by 1.61803
09-11-2014 2:55 PM


1.61803
Thanks. Please see message 11.
Regards
DL

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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 20 of 32 (737366)
09-22-2014 9:09 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by NoNukes
09-13-2014 9:12 PM


NoNukes
You are correct in that the serpent was not anything special.
It could not talk and what made it irresistible that day would have been God's power either directly or through Satan being focus through it's speech and since we know that Satan was given the power to deceive the whole world, that Eve could not resist that power.
That is why I say that Eve was innocent of everything.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 21 of 32 (737367)
09-22-2014 9:19 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by NoNukes
09-13-2014 9:23 PM


NoNukes
"As for Eve's subordinance, how does it compare to the pre-punishment state?"
The myth shows Eve as a second thought who was created as Adams helpmeat. Whatever that is. Here is a list of synonyms.
adjunct, adjutant, aid, aide, apprentice, assistant, coadjutor, deputy, helpmate, helper, lieutenant, mate, sidekick.
After they ate, Adam was to rule over her and I read that as Eve being Adams slave and property as per Jewish tradition.
As you can see, I do not agree that Adam's suffering might be considered more onerous by some measure.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by NoNukes, posted 09-13-2014 9:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by NoNukes, posted 09-23-2014 12:02 PM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 22 of 32 (737368)
09-22-2014 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
09-14-2014 2:22 PM


ringo
" Being deceived is no excuse."
Not having the power to not be deceived by a supernatural entity is a perfect excuse that any judge would accept. If there could be anything supernatural that is.
I reject your view completely due to that magic.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by ringo, posted 09-14-2014 2:22 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-23-2014 11:53 AM Greatest I am has replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 25 of 32 (737420)
09-23-2014 4:32 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by ringo
09-23-2014 11:53 AM


ringo
"Neither Adam nor Eve had the power to not be deceived. They were either equally innocent or equally guilty."
I agree but God says nothing in this myth of Adam being deceived. He does say he disobeyed.
Both being able to be deceived says nothing to the premise that Eve could not possibly resist and should thus be innocent of any wrongdoing.
Regards
DL

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by ringo, posted 09-23-2014 11:53 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 26 of 32 (737421)
09-23-2014 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by NoNukes
09-23-2014 12:02 PM


NoNukes
"During the serpent incident, Eve wasn't very much help to Adam was she?"
I think she was.
Would you eat of the tree of knowledge or would you choose to live in ignorant bliss forever?
Remember that they were to dumb to even know they were naked and were never to reproduce.
I think Eve was a great help.
I did not mention Adams consequences because I see his being master as being so much better than Eve being his slave.
Regards
DL
Edited by Greatest I am, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 29 by NoNukes, posted 09-24-2014 1:08 AM Greatest I am has not replied

  
Greatest I am
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 1676
Joined: 01-24-2007


Message 32 of 32 (753422)
03-19-2015 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coyote
09-23-2014 5:11 PM


Re: On original sin
Coyote
Many thanks for this interesting way of stating facts.
Regards
D

This message is a reply to:
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