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Author Topic:   A Better Theory: In Defense of Food by Michael Pollan
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 24 of 78 (698477)
05-07-2013 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by Taq
05-07-2013 10:53 AM


The right calories
I am not aware of any processed food that causes extreme harm.
Any food that has high fructose corn syrup is killing you - and HFCS is found in most processed foods. You need only Google processed food to see how harmful they are.
Not to mention, their nutritional value is shit. Consuming raw foods or close to the farm foods, and also grass fed meat, increases your nutritional intake while lowering your caloric intake. The reverse is true for consuming processed foods - more calories less nutritional value.
Example:
White bread sandwich with processed lunch meat, a bag of potato chips, a can of soda and a chocolate bar as dessert is a typical lunch for people. Those calories have barely any nutritional value.
Instead of that, you have two apples (locally grown) and you have less calories and much more nutritional value. It's all your body needs really. If you train your body to eat less calories, but, those calories are coming from foods with a high nutritional value, it will work better and be healthier. Your body doesn't just need calories, it needs healthy calories.
In America we consume a lot of empty calories - calories with barely any nutritional value. So we are fatties and unhealthy because we don't get enough vitamins and nutrients.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by Taq, posted 05-07-2013 10:53 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 05-07-2013 11:51 AM onifre has replied
 Message 28 by Genomicus, posted 05-07-2013 12:08 PM onifre has replied
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 05-08-2013 6:58 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 25 of 78 (698480)
05-07-2013 11:48 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Straggler
05-07-2013 11:34 AM


Re: Folksy Talk Dressed in Common Sense
I think Taq was questioning the assumption that natural must invariably be better and processed always bad.
That depends obviously. If apples are sprayed with pesticides and given who knows what kind of chemicals to grow faster, then I'd say both are equally bad.
But even then, the nutritinal value of the natural, raw state of the pesticide sprayed fruit is better than anything processed - that rarely has any nutritional value. I wouldn't eat it because of the pesticides but it would yield more nutrients.
Ideally you should eat locally grown, pesitcide free, chemical free and hormone free fruits, veggies and meat. Also, to maximize the nutritional value of the food, keep it as raw as possible (except of course for chicken and pork).
- Oni

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 30 of 78 (698488)
05-07-2013 12:24 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Taq
05-07-2013 11:51 AM


Re: The right calories
Studies?
Plenty of them - just Google high fructose corn syrup in lab rats
Here's a few things on it:
Source
Source
Source
Do you really think it doesn't harm you?
So if we took vitamins to make up for the lack of nutritional value would this eliminate the harm caused by processed foods?
There's a few problems with that. First you're still consuming a lot of calories, refined sugars, HFCS, and empty carbs that turn to fat, leads to obesity, etc. And we all know the issues one has if this is the lifestyle you choose to live - heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, to say the least. No amount of vitamins will help you change that.
Also, the over the counter vitamins you get a GNC or Vitamin World are usually crap. By the time your body processes it you're not getting much other than a very expensive pee. But, I know guys who love vitamins, however, they consume upwards of around 80 pills a day.
Just eat two apples, they taste good.
I personally think that it is the calories that are causing the most harm, regardless of where those calories come from.
You eat 4000 calories of processed foods, with refined sugars, carbs, and HFCS - and I'll eat 4000 calories of veggies and grass fed beef.
Who do you think will have the health issues?
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Taq, posted 05-07-2013 11:51 AM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 05-07-2013 2:11 PM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 32 of 78 (698490)
05-07-2013 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Genomicus
05-07-2013 12:08 PM


Re: The right calories
It's not killing you any more so than other sugars, according to research by J.S. White (2013).
There wasn't a link to read but no worries. I don't disagree - stay away from all processed sugar or artificial sweetners. Good piece of advice. Get your sugar from fruits.
The problem with HFCS is that it's in almost everything processed.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Genomicus, posted 05-07-2013 12:08 PM Genomicus has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 33 of 78 (698491)
05-07-2013 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Straggler
05-07-2013 12:27 PM


Re: Folksy Talk Dressed in Common Sense
People's nominal desire to eat more healthily has been turned into a marketing strategy for innately unhealthy foods. It's mad really....
It's always nice to give the people an enemy they can all hate, like "fat". A product with 40 grams of carbs can call itself "fat free" and people will eat it thinking it's the healthy choice.
It should illegal to do that.
- Oni

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 Message 31 by Straggler, posted 05-07-2013 12:27 PM Straggler has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 47 of 78 (698587)
05-08-2013 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
05-07-2013 2:11 PM


Re: The right calories
What you are missing is that the very things you claim are healthy, be it fruits or corn itself, also contain these very same sugars, and yet you are advocating a diet containing fructose and glucose.
Yes, but you are missing one thing: fiber
How much fiber your food has is directly related to how fast the fructose is absobed into your bloodstream. So you want to eat foods high in fiber, especially when you're eating something with sugar.
HFCS products like sodas and chips have no fiber in them, where as fruits, like an apple, has about 4.5g of fiber. This will make your body to not crave sugar as much, thus you consume less overall fructose in your diet. HFCS are absorbed very fast into the bloodstream so you're ready for your next treat sooner. Trips to the snack machine all day?
Ironically, what you seem to be arguing is that it is not what is put into processed foods that is the problem.
Yes. When you eat carbs, or sugar, you're going to want to eat foods high in fiber - something not usually found in processed foods, and often not even in the ones that claim to have fiber like cereals or fiber bars.
As you say, processed sugar contains no other nutrients other than the simple sugars. It is actually all of those long winded chemicals found in natural food that are beneficial to us, the exact OPPOSITE of what some people gripe about when it comes to processed foods.
HFCS makes you want more sugar. As is the case, that the average American today gets 12% of their diet from fructose vs 4% in the early 1900's. The more fructose you consume the less healthy you'll be.
To tell you the truth, I was much healthier when I was more active, regardless of what my diet was.
The more energy you spend the more sugar you are burning. Yes, you will feel healthier. Also it realeases all kinds of nice mood enhancing chemicals that are very rewarding to the brain. That's why you "feel" better when you're active, especially in your youth I would imagine.
In my youth I grew up on a ranch where I worked 2 hours or so a day during school, and that was on top of playing two sports. I ate "unhealthy" food all of the time, as well as some homegrown beef and veggies. I was still rail thin, could run a 5 minute mile, and never suffered from health issues. On the list of ways to be healthy I think exercise is by far the most important, well above what you eat, but that is just my opinion.
Look, if I were you I'd change this opinion quickly and start looking at what you put into your body. It will work better that way for you - and you're not young anymore, it doesn't work the same. Also, the food industry has changed and the average diet has changed with it. You'd be surprised how much less fructose you ate as a kid, and also, how much more active you were. Both of those combined will make you quick lean and healthy.
However, if your diet consists of high levels of HFCS it will lead to obesity. I would suggest cutting them out. This way you don't have to exercise as much in the later years.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Taq, posted 05-07-2013 2:11 PM Taq has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 48 of 78 (698588)
05-08-2013 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Jon
05-08-2013 6:58 AM


Re: The right calories
I'd be sick from all the sugar with nothing to balance it out.
I usually have fruits for breakfast with black coffee to balance it out.
- Oni

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 Message 46 by Jon, posted 05-08-2013 6:58 AM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 49 of 78 (698590)
05-08-2013 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by New Cat's Eye
05-07-2013 8:43 PM


Re: The right calories
And that's assuming a 100 g apple. Shit, the Granny Smith's at my local farmer's market are easily pushing 300 grams.
It doesn't matter how much it has. What matters is how fast your body absorbes it, and how soon after that your brain is telling you to have more sugar.
By having HFCS you can significantly increase the amount of sugar you consume on a daily basis. More sugar, more fatties, more fatties, more health risks, more heath risks more need for healthcare.
If I was a conspiracy guy, I'd say the corn people are in bed with the healthcare people and try hard to produce "evidence" that HFCS is good for you so you eat it, get obese and depend more on healthcare.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-07-2013 8:43 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2013 11:12 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 51 of 78 (698594)
05-08-2013 11:24 AM
Reply to: Message 50 by New Cat's Eye
05-08-2013 11:12 AM


Re: The right calories
Does that not depend on how much you have?
What matters is how much fiber it has.
Like I wrote to Taq - getting your sugar from fruits, especially apples or pears that are high in fiber, reduces how fast fructose is absorbed into the bloodstream. This works for any carb also.
Were as, if you're getting your sugar from a soda with no fiber, it is immediately absorbed into the bloodstream. So your body is ready for more sugar faster. Overall it has the affect of increasing the amount of fructose you'll have in your daily diet since your body will constantly demand sugar.
If you have fruits your body will ask for sugary foods less. Works for carbs as well. Have carbs that are high in fiber, like beans instead of rice, and your body will crave less carbs overall in your daily diet.
Its nothing personal, its just business
I knew it!
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2013 11:12 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-08-2013 11:47 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 53 of 78 (698601)
05-08-2013 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by New Cat's Eye
05-08-2013 11:47 AM


Re: The right calories
Yeah, I don't think there's anything particularly bad about fructose. Nor do I think that there anything wrong with corn syrup that has its fructose levels increase from 50% all the way up to 55%.
As I said, its all the shit around it that matters.
Well it is important to have fructose for energy. But if you have too much, and you're not active for example, it turns into fat cells and leads to fatties at the beach. Disgusting. Plus it leads to all kinds of health issues later in life. So long as you moderate it, and have smart fructose like fruits instead of soda, should be ok - unless of course you're diabetic, then it can be an issue.
Out of curiosity, how does fiber affect the fructose absorption rate?
The presence of fiber will slow down your digestion because there's more things your stomach needs to breakdown. So by just the way your digestion system functions fructose will be absorbed slowly in a longer period of time.
The presence of no fiber allows the fuctose to be absobed immediately without any steps in between you eating it and the liver absobing it.
- Oni

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onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 56 of 78 (698616)
05-08-2013 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Percy
05-08-2013 12:06 PM


Re: The right calories
I may disagree with Onifre somewhat on the interaction between fiber and fructose. I believe that fructose intimately integrated into the fiber of an apple because they grew together is experienced substantially differently by the human digestion system than just the combination of 6 grams of fructose, 2 grams of glucose and 4 grams of fiber.
Do you disagree that fiber slows down the absorption of other nutrients found in the same food? Because I think that's a lot of what fiber does. Obviously fructose would fall into one of those nutrients being absorbed slowly, is how I understand it.
This hypothesis has a substantial chance of being true because, as nutrition science keeps discovering, food has components we don't understand yet or even know about.
I wanted ask this earlier when you mentioned Omega-3's and our new found knowledge of how much we need it - lots of wild salmon, guys!
Maybe some of the older folk here can help, what oil did they give spoonfuls of to kids and why did they do that?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Percy, posted 05-08-2013 12:06 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 63 of 78 (698817)
05-09-2013 6:49 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by Taq
05-09-2013 1:16 PM


Re: The right calories
I wasn't able to find any reliable information on the relative absorption rates of an apple vs. soda pop (aka HCFS).
Fiber slows down the rate the body absorbes nutrients and chemicals - also foods high in protein and good fats slow down the rate that glucose is absorbed.
I guess you can start by looking up how fiber slows down the rate of absotion of nutrients.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by Taq, posted 05-09-2013 1:16 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-10-2013 10:08 AM onifre has replied
 Message 68 by Taq, posted 05-10-2013 11:30 AM onifre has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 66 of 78 (698869)
05-10-2013 10:31 AM
Reply to: Message 65 by New Cat's Eye
05-10-2013 10:08 AM


Is that why it makes you poop so much? 'Cause you ain't absorbing shit?
Haha!
Not all fiber helps the poop shoot. You want foods high in insoluble fiber like bran, beans, some fruits (apples and pears), and some veggies.
Soluble fiber helps with cholesterol and that. Foods like beans, whole wheat, fruits, veggies, nuts.
Some foods are high in both, and those are the best ones: Broccoli, carrots, apples, rye bread, peas, oatmeal, plums - to name a few. Eat two or three of those per-day and you're body will be shitting gloriously and fighting cancer at the same time.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-10-2013 10:08 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-10-2013 10:52 AM onifre has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2981 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 70 of 78 (698917)
05-10-2013 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 67 by New Cat's Eye
05-10-2013 10:52 AM


There's a farmer's market, like, 150 yards down the street from my house, so we just get our vegetables from there. I usually have chicken or pork for protein. On a special occasion, I'll grill up a porterhouse.
Yeah cholesterol is a killer. But from what I've read - look up bulletproofexecutive.com - if you switch to grass fed beef it's actually better for you than regular store bought pork or chicken. It has all the good fats and none of the bad, plus it's free of any chemicals and/or hormones. It's good for your cholesterol.
I have gress fed beef 3 times a week,, the rest is fish (try wild as much as possible) and a little pork. If I'm going with bird, other than wild game, I go with turrkey with higher protein and less fat. My cholesterol has been perfect for the last 2 years.
Lately though I've been getting into wild game a bit more. I'd like to hunt more often, but for now I order online. It's pretty cheap. I'd like to make that change of only eating food food like Percy is suggesting.
My biggest problem now is a lack of exercise.
Yeah that's my biggest problem too. Although I walk maybe 5 miles a day just getting around in NY, I also have kettle bells at home. We can all stand to be more active.
I suppose your body gets used to the intake, but that initial plunge was something else.
Yeah, when you first start a high fiber diet it's an issue! Gas and powerful shits. But your body will get used to it.
I start the day with an apple and a banana, but by 10:30am I have a bowl of split pea or lentils - they are high in fiber. More so than any bran cereal I've seen and are not processed at all.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-10-2013 10:52 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-10-2013 4:06 PM onifre has not replied

  
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