What Happens When You Remove Faith

I think you hit the nail on the head with this statement anastasia. I believe that morality is mainly an expression of greed. The act of doing something "good" can have benefits on the individual.What reason would a person have for not robbing his neighbor, sleeping with his wife, or even killing this person? Self preservation. I don't rob my neighbor in hopes that he does not rob me. I live in a society where such acts are against the law, as a result I obey these laws in hopes that I do not become a victim. In a state of lawlessness I could run around doing as I please - and so can everyone else. With these laws in place I came to the decision that stealing another persons property was not worth the risk of jailtime, criminal record, and the likely result of the people I care about disliking me.What has motivated me to be a "moral" person? I don't want to loose my freedoms (jailtime), I want people to generally like me, and I don't want to get robbed, raped, killed, or even have someone call me names. I do believe in the golden rule, do unto others, I believe in it because I am greedy. I would like to live in a stress free environment and the most logical place to start is by not creating stress for others. The reason its the right thing to do is that one has the possibility of reward at the end of it all. Religion is no different in its reasons.For most people doing good has more benefits that doing bad. There are certainly examples of bad people living like kings (or presidents!), but for the most part the individual is best served to be nice to other people, stay within the laws set by society/religion - and in most cases the persons greedy nature will benefit.Edited by Vacate, : Spell check

When I held the door open for my co-worker I did it because the alternative (shutting the door on them) is not conductive to a good working atmosphere. Eight hours with someone who thinks I am a jerk will not be a good shift. I did it because being nice to someone does have its benefits. I agree. We have over thousands of years created a society that has decided that one persons greed should not come at the cost of others. We have not perfected this yet, but for the most part we all try to live in respect of others because we wish to have that respect returned to us. Is this Greed? Possibly not, given that greed has a negative connotation. Is it wrong to say its greed that causes me to hold the door open for someone because it makes me feel good? Well, in a way - it had a benefit to me. I live in Canada because I feel it is a safe and friendly country where I can be happy with my family and friends. The alternative, Iraq say, is a hellhole and its a place where I would not feel safe, the people I care about would not be safe, and the bombing would make my internet unstable while reading EVC (I would not like that) If you did live in such a place it might be a good idea to continue to live as a moral person - you would likely live longer. The fact that you choose to live in a well-developed area is exactly my point. I do too. When I was in the hospital for a lung collapse I was miserable. It was not my idea of a fun way to spend Christmas, the nurses however where always nice and tried their best. The day after I got out I hobbled up to the Wal-mart to buy a gift package for them - I hoped that a nice gesture would improve their day. Maybe if my family member or friend ends up there they will also get the same good care that I recieved. One could say I did it for "no reason at all", I certainly did not have to give them anything. I did it because I hope good care from that facility continues, and a good gesture may help it to continue.I am not a moral person simply because I don't want to go to jail. Its more complex that such a generalization. Being a good person makes me feel good, being friendly often results in the people I am with being friendly to me, being moral results in the people I trust not abusing my generosity - I benefit more from being good than being bad.The reward at the end of it all is not instant, much like you holding the door but not simply to get a smile in return. I hold the door open for anyone that happens to be behind me - I also find that behavior like this has positive results for me. I don't have fights with my co-workers and I believe its partly because I am always polite. Its the right thing to do, and I benefit being in a more pleasant environment.

This is mostly true, if say I held the door open for a person and then became upset because they did not smile (or some such result). From my experience however its not a matter of "expecting" or "hoping" for a positive result, the result is inevitable. I dont need to hope for it. If I do a positive action a number of times I know that I will have a good result eventually - and this makes it worth it. You may not have conciously thought "I hope my coworker really likes me now" - but if being nice to people inevitably brings you positive results than its still in your own self interests worth being polite for no reason.'Greed' has a negative outlook, 'self motivated' is much the same. In the grand scheme of things I do see being moral as having a better prospect for my interests than being immoral. For lack of a better term this is greed. The situation you wrote about, though funny, is not the type of greed that I mean. A positive result did happen as a side effect, but the intent was purely immoral. Inflicting serious pain on someone simply to further ones interest in the long run would have negative effects. Tom now may decide that he doesn't like soccer, but will start weightlifting so he can rearange Bob's face in a few years. At the very least Bob lost a friend and isn't likely to make many more. So, since I can conclude that being a moral person will always have a overall positive result for my own self interests I see this as greedy. I don't like the word but my vocabulary hasn't come up with a better alternative. Being immoral and greedy may have short term benefits, but in the long run the jerks always seem to get whats coming to them. I prefer the route of being a greedy nice person.Referring back to the OP and Phat's quote from another thread: I used to be moral due to my faith, with the loss of my faith I had to decide for more personal reasons why I would continue to be moral. My self-centered outlook still led me to see that morality does have its place in a Godless society, its best for my own self interests. I am selfish, and it led me to see that a selfless act still has its purpose. I do not need God to be moral, I just need the desire to be happy and being moral helps me to reach that goal.Edited by Vacate, : spelling

I expected that, but it does not change the fact that I believe you are right. Why? I choose to live in a society that has outlawed murder and theft because I don't want to be killed or stolen from; why is this wrong? I obey these laws (and even our moral codes) because I believe that they are the best way to ensure the safety and happiness of the largest number of people. One of those people is me, the others it includes are my friends and family (who are important to me)Why is it wrong to admit that even a so called "selfless" act is never truly selfless. It does not lessen the effect. If someone does good things in the hopes of reaching Heaven what difference is that to me just wanting a pleasant journey into the dirt?

That is fine, when I do an act of kindness I don't stop to consider if there will be a benefit to me. I don't feel the need to stop and consider each action that I am about to do and decide if I will have some sort of positive return. In hindsight - its inevitable. I don't deny that, If I made that claim I am sorry. What I have tried to express is that regardless of whether I think about it, mull over it, or "do nothing after that" - good deeds on others result in good deeds done to me. I know from my actions and the long term effects that its had; compared to some jerks I know; that I stand a better chance of gaining the respect of my peers. Regardless of my intent at the time, that I would also consider "selfless" - I can also see the end result as being good for me. And I am saying that I have observed that these positive effects have a dramatic effect on the environment that I choose to be in. Does my awareness somehow taint any such action that I can take from now on? I have heard it, yet I choose to "finish last" because the ones who finish first are certainly not the happiest people out there. Pick up a copy of a celebrity magazine and you will see that success should not always be defined by the size of the wallet. As I said before - I just wish for a pleasant journey into the dirt, I am perfectly comfortable with calling this "greed". Thats a mirror of my basics also. What I notice is that a "bad" effect does not happen, a "meh" effect leaves a situation at zero, and a "good" effect is a reason to do something for no reason. No need to talk to the person to gauge their reaction, a positive reaction is inevitable eventually. Great, the way I see it is I simply took it one step further when I see such actions having an effect on me. Good or bad it comes back. I don't worry if my view extends to anyone else really. That would be self-righteous, and I can't stand such behavior.ABE: Thanks Stile for the exchange, and I am sorry Jazzns. If I continue I will try to keep the discussion on topic. Edited by Vacate, : No reason given.