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Author Topic:   What Happens When You Remove Faith
Phat
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Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 7 of 180 (402909)
05-30-2007 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Jazzns
05-29-2007 12:16 PM


Faith without works is dead.
Jazzns writes:
It seems like that some of these statements imply that the only thing holding a lot of fundamentalists back from total selfish debauchery is their faith. So the question I like to pose to the forum is what would actually happen to these people if they could be convinced en-mass that there was no God?
Good topic, Jazzns! If it could somehow be proven to me that God did not exist, my world view would obviously undergo some major transformations.
Why?
First off, I believe that I would still do my volunteer work with the inner city youth, since I want so much to empower and educate them to succeed in life. My message to them would still be for them to get an education and find a wider variety of people to associate with who can help them.
A Christian world view can mean many things to many different Christians, but essentially the fundamentalist mindset would say that their concept of morality and purpose would originate from the God whom they believe is in their heart.
Were there no God, The Greatest Commandment(s) would drop from two to one.
No longer would we be commanded to love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength. We would simply be commanded to love our neighbor as ourselves.
As you point out, you need no commandment, religion, or leader to tell you to do this....you feel it to be a natural expression of your human spirit.
I would then ask how it was possible for humans to collectively have such an inner goodness without a Creator. But then again, that would get us into the philosophical question of whether humans are basically born altruistically good or whether we were born basically selfish.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Jazzns, posted 05-29-2007 12:16 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by Heathen, posted 05-30-2007 5:29 PM Phat has replied
 Message 20 by Jazzns, posted 05-30-2007 11:14 PM Phat has replied
 Message 72 by Jazzns, posted 06-01-2007 1:54 PM Phat has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18351
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.0


Message 10 of 180 (402914)
05-30-2007 5:41 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by New Cat's Eye
05-30-2007 2:18 PM


Inner and Outer reality
Exclusivity finally gets a soapbox!
Catholic Scientist writes:
One of the reasons that I desire to be good to people is that I think they are special, because of god. I don't really care about the other animals that much.
So does that mean that without God, we would torture cats and shoot more rabbits? Would Bambi be in danger??
I think that the core question of this thread is that if our intellects were wiped clean of God, would our inner transformation that we believe so strongly in also get wiped clean?
I think not.
I also think that this inner transformation is not just limited to those who say the sinners prayer, take communion, or belong to an organized religion.
Catholic Scientist writes:
If we're all godless animals without any real meaning to our existence, then fuck all y'all, gimme mine. None of this shit matters anymore. But then, maybe I'm just a bad person. You should be glad that I believe in god. It makes me a better person.
  • There are many who profess belief in God who still behave as if there were no God.
  • I read once where an observation was made that deathbed conversions are essentially a glorified myth. The way that a person believes and behaves throughout their life is essentially the way that they leave this life.
    In other words, fear should never be a motivation to believe, nor should unbelief ever be a motivation to misbehave. IMHO anyway.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 5 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-30-2007 2:18 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 29 by New Cat's Eye, posted 05-31-2007 11:41 AM Phat has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18351
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 11 of 180 (402917)
    05-30-2007 5:48 PM
    Reply to: Message 9 by Heathen
    05-30-2007 5:29 PM


    Re: Faith without works is dead.
    Creavolution writes:
    Why do you need a creator to explain the unknown?
    Good question. Do we?
    This topic allows me to have some moments of introspection so bear with me...my answers are subject to revision as my understanding unfolds.
    As far as the unknown goes, God is, IMHO, not needed to explain the outer unknown. The far reaches of the galaxies and the depths of the soils and environments of the earth can be explored and studied by atheist and evangelist alike.
    I am less certain of the territory between my ears. I biologically may not "need" God...although I heard that they were attempting to link faith to genetic predisposition.
    Psychologically, it is comforting to me to believe that an all knowing Creator cares so much about each of us individually and collectively. But the thought occurs to me:
    Were He not to exist, would my own inner spirit continue to strive towards carrying on the work and the meaning of such a universal communion? And I don't see any reason why not!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 9 by Heathen, posted 05-30-2007 5:29 PM Heathen has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18351
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 24 of 180 (402990)
    05-31-2007 9:03 AM
    Reply to: Message 20 by Jazzns
    05-30-2007 11:14 PM


    Re: Faith without works is dead.
    Jazzsn writes:
    That is besides the point of the OP though. You seem to be backing off of your stance that you would automatically turn into a scrooge the moment God is taken out of the picture.
    Good point.
    I suppose what I am saying is that even if god didnt exist, I believe that my inner spirit still exists. Perhaps I attribute this internal goodness to an impartation from a monotheistic Omnipotent source...so in essence, even if God didn't exist, I do.
    If an uncaused first cause and source of all goodness is taken out of the equation after the fact, the effects of that initial cause still exist.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 20 by Jazzns, posted 05-30-2007 11:14 PM Jazzns has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18351
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
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    Message 25 of 180 (402991)
    05-31-2007 9:12 AM
    Reply to: Message 23 by ikabod
    05-31-2007 8:52 AM


    Faith
    all that we have is an observation of morality (through whatever means) in secular cultures since time began. This has nothing to do with God, apart from the premise that He foreknew everyone.
    Perhaps we need to focus on what faith is and whether the idea of removing God is more than a choice.
    Faith can be an acrostic:
    Forsaking
    All
    I
    Trust
    Him
    Thats one version.
    What about this version, however?
    Finding
    Answers
    I
    Test
    Hypothesis
    Whats the common denominator between the two acrostics?
    I

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 23 by ikabod, posted 05-31-2007 8:52 AM ikabod has not replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18351
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
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    Message 46 of 180 (403049)
    05-31-2007 4:06 PM
    Reply to: Message 27 by Taz
    05-31-2007 11:38 AM


    Opie gone good?
    Taz writes:
    Even in this day and age, we have examples of mass murders and genocides that result in hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people dying.
    A Christian fundamentalist may say that society is basically bad and needs salvation
    A secular humanist may say that society is basically good and needs to abandon religion and exclusivism.
    What does Taz say?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by Taz, posted 05-31-2007 11:38 AM Taz has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 51 by Taz, posted 05-31-2007 4:50 PM Phat has replied

      
    Phat
    Member
    Posts: 18351
    From: Denver,Colorado USA
    Joined: 12-30-2003
    Member Rating: 1.0


    Message 101 of 180 (403585)
    06-04-2007 10:31 AM
    Reply to: Message 51 by Taz
    05-31-2007 4:50 PM


    Re: Opie gone good?
    Taz writes:
    Since when did secular humanists not care about acts of mass murders and genocides in other parts of the world?
    I'm assuming that they do care. I'm just curious as to what they attribute the behavior to! IOW why do people do such things?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 51 by Taz, posted 05-31-2007 4:50 PM Taz has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 102 by nator, posted 06-04-2007 12:04 PM Phat has not replied

      
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