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Author | Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
I have argued against the OP in this thread. Go ahead and read my posts. There are only 570 of them and most of them are mercifully short. You know that God does not exist? Frankly (and I seldom admit this), I think i lost the argument. It was always a stretch. I think Style's claim that he knows God does not exist is much stronger than anybody else's claim that they know God does exist. It was a worthwhile exercise. I like to skate on thin ice once in a while. I'm Canadian, so thin ice is my natural habitat."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That isn't "going far" at all. It's practically a given. You demonstrate that every time you throw the Jesus of the Bible away and replace it with your own "communed" version.
Ringo even goes so far as to argue that the entire concept of God is relative to the individual. Phat writes:
In the individual version that you have made up.
I disagree because the relationship is a two-way street... Phat writes:
But so many non-Judeo-Christians say the same thing about their individual gods. ... the still small voice whom I pray to and talk with, no non-Judeo Christian candidate is ever heard from. And let's drop the Judeo part. Don't forget that the Jews also deny your version.
Phat writes:
You really can't. You might as well post a page from the phone book and call that an argument. I can explain more fully through audio conversation rather than this tedious chore of written argument."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
People often claim something is "axiomatic" when they can't back it up. It's axiomatic ...."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Dredge writes:
Again, it isn't about proof. This thread is about weight of evidence. Stile's argument is that zero evidence is enough to decide he "knows". My attempted argument was that he doesn't "know" until he's finished looking. No one can possibly prove that God doesn't exist.... ABE:
Dredge writes:
Nobody is going to argue that. Science doesn't deal in proof. Evidence is infinitely more valuable than "proof". I suspect you're arguing that "evidence" is the same as "proof" ... in which case, wow. Remember the goober who "proved" that bumblebees can't fly? And yet, we have evidence that they can."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Theodoric writes:
Old joke: "He doesn't know the meaning of the word 'quit'. He doesn't know the meaning of the word 'fail'. He doesn't know the meaning of a lot of words." I wonder if he even knows what the word means."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's nonsense. Belief is the opposite of knowledge. You can't know until you stop believing nonsense. I would add that a person does not really "know" until they are finished believing/accepting."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You think appreciating high standards is ironic? You have really high standards. But ironically, I appreciate it."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Luke writes:
Little children don't worry about their retirement.
... whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it. Phat writes:
That's a very anti-science thing to say. Is your imagination limited by science?"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Putin is a follower of the Orthodox Church. The same could be said for atheist "nutcases" like Putin..."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You shouldn't let dust accumulate on either your dictionary or your Bible.
*Phat blows dust off of both the dictionary and the Bible* Phat writes:
Ignorance and belief are in the same category. Innocent ignorance is okay but wilfull ignorance is not and aggressive ignorance, like Dredge's, is worse. It's one thing to be ignorant of science and another thing to wilfully turn your back on the evidence. Worst of all is when you let belief get in the way of evidence (or lack of evidence).
Ignorance is the opposite of knowledge, not belief. Phat writes:
No it isn't.
And nonsense is subjective. Phat writes:
And they are, by definition, nonsense. Non = not.
Many things in life don't make sense. Phat writes:
Or how you, if you actually followed Christianity, would do what Christ said. But you prefer your nonsensical, self-serving religion.
Such as how, if Putin actually followed Orthodoxy, he would approve of the sins of his army. Phat writes:
You mean the "doubting Thomas" story? I have tried to clear up your misunderstanding before. Jesus said that it was blessed to believe without seeing. John 20:1-2 Mary Magdalane tells Peter that Jesus' body is missing from the tomb.John 20: 8 Peter goes to the tomb, sees and believes. John 20:19-20 The disciples see Jesus and He shows them His wounds. But Thomas is not there. John 20:25 The disciples tell Thomas what they saw but he wants to see the evidence for himself. John 20:26-27 Eight days later, Jesus appears to the disciples again and shows Thomas His wounds. john 20:29 And only then, after voluntarily showing the evidence, He says that it is also okay to believe without seeing. It's a pretty long stretch to pretend that believing without seeing is better than believing when you see the evidence.
Phat writes:
You say that as if being Elmer Gantry is a bad thing.
You believe in the ideals of a character in a book, yet (having) never seen the character outside of the book, you conclude that he was an Elmer Gantry. Phat writes:
No. You have finished looking when you stop looking. That has nothing to do with any conclusions about belief and knowledge.
You have only finished looking when you conclude that belief and knowledge are polar opposites. Phat writes:
In your case, your obvious mistrust is a symptom of your empty belief. They are not opposites.
It appears to me that the opposite of belief is mistrust. Phat writes:
That's like going "all-in" trusting a bridge. We trust it because it's our only choice.
You have gone all-in on trusting science Phat writes:
It isn't "somehow feeling". It's a logical conclusion. You can believe until the cows come home that you can jump the river like them Duke boys. But you have to discard that belief if you want to survive. while somehow feeling as if you have to discard your belief in order to do so."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Stile writes:
I have a table like that. I can look for something twenty times and it isn't there - and then it is there. After all... perhaps there is some physics trick-of-the-light where my keys are perfectly blending into the table with excellent camoflauge."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
I didn't think Stile was saying that - but he did say "I" know. Maybe "I" can know something that "you" don't.
So are you saying that since levels of contentment are relative to the individual, "knowing" is also relative to the individual? Phat writes:
Objective and absolute are not the same thing. Or are you pushing for knowledge to be objective and absolute?"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You don't need to "perhaps" it. I have told you explicitly many times why I don't have to "give it all up". I have told you so many times that I'm not even going to tell you again. I will add that I also feel I don't have to make a pilgrimage to Mecca or refrain from eating shellfish. There are a lot of religious beliefs that I don't feel I have to follow. Can't you figure out why?
Perhaps that is why you don't feel that you have to "give it all up". Phat writes:
Well, of course it is.
Survival is more important than God. Phat writes:
Go ahead and list some other choices.
As far as your bridge analogy, it is not our only choice. Phat writes:
Unless you're planning on walking across with your car under your arm, that's not a viable choice. When you simply stopped looking, you realized that the bridge of logic was safer and more convenient than trusting that you could either swim or walk on water."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Don't evade the question. Why do you think I don't feeel obligated to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Answer the question. ringo writes:
For one thing you have far too many of them on the list. There are a lot of religious beliefs that I don't feel I have to follow. Can't you figure out why? Do YOU feel obligated to make a pilgrimage to Mecca? Why not?
Phat writes:
Same river. Same way of getting across.
I can think of Jesus in light of the bridge analogy. He is the only way to the Father.But then you go and throw Mecca on the list. Different bridge, different town. Phat writes:
So Jesus isn't "the only way" after all. Canadians can walk on water. They lace up their skates and wait for it to freeze."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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ringo Member (Idle past 442 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Does it? We've been through the claim before that Jesus was around since the beginning. It doesn't hold any water.
In the Gospel Of John, the text says that through Him all things were created. Phat writes:
You're still evading the question: Why would I not feel obligated to go on a pilgramage to Mecca? Why do YOU not feel obligated to go on a pilgrimage to Mecca. Just answer the question. Don't try to be clever.
You first concluded that humans had many gods. You next concluded that you didn't need to follow ANY of them, including Jesus. Phat writes:
Like Trump tells YOU what you wamt to hear?
Some day, some leader is going to say the things you all want to hear. Phat writes:
Most of the countries on earth have already done that
About how the government need to take away all of the guns and all of the nukes. Phat writes:
Nonsense. This leader will profess Christianity, like Trump and Hitler and Napoleon. Nobody can be an antiChrist without being a fake Christian.
This leader will profess no religion. Phat writes:
No. This leader will be a hatefilled asshole like Trump and all of the hatefilled assholes, like you, will support him.
This leader will likely be a loving humanist. Phat writes:
And you call yourself a "moderate", yet you set the religious authoritarians up on a pedestal.
The ones who oppose will be religious authoritarians from the conservative side... Phat writes:
You really don't know the first thing about your own antiChrist, do you? And one day this leader will walk into that new Temple that will be built in Israel and will go in to the holy of holies and say that we humans are the only important character in future progress."Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt." -- motto of the Special Olympians
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