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Author
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Topic: I Know That God Does Not Exist
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ringo
Member (Idle past 430 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: 03-23-2005
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Re: Big words
Theodoric writes: I wonder if he even knows what the word means.
Old joke: "He doesn't know the meaning of the word 'quit'. He doesn't know the meaning of the word 'fail'. He doesn't know the meaning of a lot of words."
"Let me win. But if I cannot win, let me be brave in the attempt."
-- motto of the Special Olympians
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2910 by Theodoric, posted 08-08-2022 3:04 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2912 of 3207 (896439)
08-09-2022 4:39 PM
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Reply to: Message 2909 by ringo
08-08-2022 12:54 PM
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The Man In The Book
ringo,referring to Dredge writes: Again, it isn't about proof. This thread is about weight of evidence. Stile's argument is that zero evidence is enough to decide he "knows". My attempted argument was that he doesn't "know" until he's finished looking. I would add that a person does not really "know" until they are finished believing/accepting. If you are convinced... either through your own reasoning, listening to Sam Harris or Richard Carrier, and/or observing the behavior of people who claim Christianity and seeing the lack of a better life in them vs you and other humanists... you will finish looking, finish believing (if you ever actually did) and above all finish accepting. You might argue that I myself finished accepting when I "made up" my own Jesus who went easy on me.  I know that you can throw your relativistic arguments at me that the same holds true for all of the other "gods"....and I cant really give you evidence that there is only one God whose character is Jesus Christ (humanly speaking). And you have thrown down the gauntlet at insisting that I listen fully and obediently to the Jesus of the Book since He told me what to do. What I cant defend without changing and adapting is my belief that a relationship with Jesus means that I can get away with disobeying Him without getting thrown on the slagheaps of hell. My argument to you is that you cant really ever be finished looking until and unless you choose to stop looking. More evidence is and will be available as humans themselves will provide the evidence for or against. Edited by Phat, : edited
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2909 by ringo, posted 08-08-2022 12:54 PM | | ringo has replied |
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9133 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 2913 of 3207 (896440)
08-09-2022 5:02 PM
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Reply to: Message 2912 by Phat
08-09-2022 4:39 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
Well, those were words. They were sentences. But they really didn't say anything
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2912 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 4:39 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2914 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 5:17 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: The Man In The Book
You must be a teacher. You have really high standards. But ironically, I appreciate it.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2913 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2022 5:02 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2936 by ringo, posted 08-10-2022 11:54 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4407 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.4
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Message 2915 of 3207 (896443)
08-09-2022 5:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 2912 by Phat
08-09-2022 4:39 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
More evidence is and will be available as humans themselves will provide the evidence for or against. More evidence? There is zero evidence so far. Thousands of years and billions of people, but absolutely no evidence that the supernatural is anything but imagination. Grow up.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2912 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 4:39 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2916 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 6:32 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: The Man In The Book
So you are saying that its highly illogical and unbelievable that there is a higher power, Creator of all seen and unseen. And I am assuming that your "standard" of evidence excludes the personal experience and perspective of many others.
...absolutely no evidence that the supernatural is anything but imagination. Grow up
Yes, we see how well grown-ups run the world!
Luke 18:15-17 writes: Then they also brought infants to Him that He might touch them; but when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. 16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. 17 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it."NKJV And I understand that to be childlike does not mean being childish. Is your imagination limited by science?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Theodoric
Member Posts: 9133 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
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Message 2917 of 3207 (896445)
08-09-2022 7:29 PM
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Reply to: Message 2916 by Phat
08-09-2022 6:32 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
No. I imagine his imagination is limited by reality. You do realize that Christians run most of the world you complain about.
What can be asserted without evidence can also be dismissed without evidence. -Christopher Hitchens Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness. If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2916 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 6:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2920 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 10:49 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 2918 of 3207 (896446)
08-09-2022 7:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 2916 by Phat
08-09-2022 6:32 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
And I understand that to be childlike does not mean being childish. Is your imagination limited by science? Depends on the goal. Imagination can be a powerful scientific tool as long as it is followed up by experiment and validation to see if the brainstorm was correct. In a way, science limits the range of actions that could have resulted in the present and it further limits the range of actions open to the future. Imagination is unlimited in the fictional monsters it can create past and future. So while imagination can be good for science and education and entertainment it is not so good for us in religious nutcases dead set on ruling society.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2916 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 6:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2921 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 10:55 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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Tanypteryx
Member Posts: 4407 From: Oregon, USA Joined: 08-27-2006 Member Rating: 5.4
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Message 2919 of 3207 (896448)
08-09-2022 8:51 PM
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Reply to: Message 2916 by Phat
08-09-2022 6:32 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
So you are saying that its highly illogical and unbelievable that there is a higher power, I am saying there is no evidence, period. If there were any higher powers that wanted us to know they exist, it would be easy to give us absolute evidence.
And I am assuming that your "standard" of evidence excludes the personal experience and perspective of many others. Personal experience and perspective of multitudes are completely intangible.
Yes, we see how well grown-ups run the world! What? No one thinks you can run the world, no one is talking about running the world. For the sake of your own life, face reality and be responsible for yourself. There is no fucking magic parachute that will save this planet from us.
Is your imagination limited by science? Of course not, it's informed by reality and I know the difference between imagination and reality.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty PythonOne important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy The reason that we have the scientific method is because common sense isn't reliable. -- Taq
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2916 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 6:32 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2923 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 11:37 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied | | | Message 2980 by Dredge, posted 08-12-2022 10:11 PM | | Tanypteryx has replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: The Man In The Book
Theodoric writes: You do realize that Christians run most of the world you complain about. As far as we know, at least. Would it be any different (better or worse) If everyone in political office or position of authority(J.Powell, for instance) were avowed atheists? Can we even judge whether or not a candidate or leader...despite publically saying they are Christian (of course) really be atheist/agnostic at heart? Putin is likely an atheist, as is Xi Jinping.
Would they be any better if they claimed to be Christians? Are Western Christian leaders any worse for not being atheists?
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2917 by Theodoric, posted 08-09-2022 7:29 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2922 by nwr, posted 08-09-2022 11:21 PM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 2931 by Percy, posted 08-10-2022 8:29 AM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2921 of 3207 (896451)
08-09-2022 10:55 PM
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Reply to: Message 2918 by AZPaul3
08-09-2022 7:52 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
AZ writes: science limits the range of actions that could have resulted in the present and it further limits the range of actions open to the future. So does reality. Whats the point?
Imagination is unlimited in the fictional monsters it can create past and future.
Imagination (Star Trek, Star Wars, etc, etc) is also limited in the fictional future worlds it can create.
So while imagination can be good for science and education and entertainment it is not so good for us in religious nutcases dead set on ruling society. The same could be said for atheist "nutcases" like Putin who have a vision for the future.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2918 by AZPaul3, posted 08-09-2022 7:52 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2925 by AZPaul3, posted 08-10-2022 12:17 AM | | Phat has replied | | | Message 2938 by ringo, posted 08-10-2022 12:04 PM | | Phat has seen this message but not replied |
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nwr
Member Posts: 6409 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: 08-08-2005 Member Rating: 5.3
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Message 2922 of 3207 (896452)
08-09-2022 11:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 2920 by Phat
08-09-2022 10:49 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
Putin is likely an atheist, as is Xi Jinping. I'm under the impression that Putin is Russian Orthodox.
Vladimir Putin - Wikipedia
Fundamentalism - the anti-American, anti-Christian branch of American Christianity
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2920 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 10:49 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2924 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 11:59 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Re: The Man In The Book
Tanypteryx writes: If there were any higher powers that wanted us to know they exist, it would be easy to give us absolute evidence. It would also be easy to remain invisible until and unless we wanted to know about them(Him,Her,It) or freely choose to dismiss such a possible concept. IF GOD exists, GOD exists regardless of evidence or lack thereof. If not, no harm no foul.
Personal experience and perspective of multitudes are completely intangible.
quote
intangible
Incapable of being perceived by the senses.
Incapable of being realized or defined.
Incorporeal.
On the contrary, a perspective of a multitude (no matter the number) is quite tangible if it causes mass behavior.
No one thinks you can run the world, no one is talking about running the world. If *you* (anyone) can't run the world, what makes you think that *we* can? (though I suppose that the jury is still out, pending future results)
For the sake of your own life, face reality and be responsible for yourself. If a GOD existed, would we say the same thing to Him? Butt out and do your own thing? Why would we rebel against a *human* Who chose to be responsible for *ALL* of us?
I know the difference between imagination and reality. Thats because you have grown up. A child has no problem with both extremes existing at the same time and place. |
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
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Phat
Member Posts: 18295 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: 12-30-2003 Member Rating: 1.1
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Message 2924 of 3207 (896454)
08-09-2022 11:59 PM
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Reply to: Message 2922 by nwr
08-09-2022 11:21 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
From the source you presented:
Wiki writes: When asked in 2007 whether he believes in God, he responded: "There are things I believe, which should not in my position, at least, be shared with the public at large for everybody's consumption because that would look like self-advertising or a political striptease." Putin's rumored confessor is Russian Orthodox Bishop Tikhon Shevkunov. The sincerity of his Christianity has been rejected by his former advisor Sergei Pugachev.
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain " *** “…far from science having buried God, not only do the results of science point towards his existence, but the scientific enterprise itself is validated by his existence.”- Dr.John Lennox “A God without wrath brought men without sin into a Kingdom without judgment through the ministrations of a Christ without a Cross.”
H. Richard Niebuhr, The Kingdom of God in America “The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of a doubt, what is laid before him.” — Leo Tolstoy, The Kingdom of God is Within You
(1894).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2922 by nwr, posted 08-09-2022 11:21 PM | | nwr has seen this message but not replied |
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AZPaul3
Member Posts: 8527 From: Phoenix Joined: 11-06-2006 Member Rating: 5.1
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Message 2925 of 3207 (896455)
08-10-2022 12:17 AM
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Reply to: Message 2921 by Phat
08-09-2022 10:55 PM
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Re: The Man In The Book
me writes: science limits the range of actions that could have resulted in the present and it further ... So does reality. Whats the point? Hmm. I hadn't thought that before. It's like science and reality are the same thing. Who'da thunk?
Imagination (Star Trek, Star Wars, etc, etc) is also limited in the fictional future worlds it can create. Get thee to the SciFi section of the library. Read thee some Douglas Adams, Larry Niven, Orson Scott Card.
The same could be said for atheist "nutcases" like Putin who have a vision for the future. Yes, imagination is dangerous in the minds of those who would kill to believe and maintain it. Your friend Luther comes to mind along with all the other popes, priests and protestants.
Stop Tzar Vladimir the Condemned!
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 2921 by Phat, posted 08-09-2022 10:55 PM | | Phat has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 2941 by Phat, posted 08-10-2022 1:48 PM | | AZPaul3 has replied |
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