Why do right?

If we could not do the things that humans do (be able to respond immediately to the emotional reactions of others) to allow ourselves to live together in a society that (for the most part) rubs along quite well (and remember we are talking about populations rather than individuals here), then we would most likely be extinct. Empathy is a form of communication that predates language. It serves a survival purpose to see from a glance that ones friend is afraid; that most likely means there are dangers about.Our brains are vastly complex and we have had to make several developmental sacrifices to enable our biology to cope: brains that require big heads that cause serious problems when balanced against the width of the birth canal, long periods when the baby is useless at self preservation (even feeding), a brain that keeps developing structuarally after we are born (more so in males; this is why males have a higher incidence of post natal brain damage due to environmental factors), an energy requirement that could only be achieved when we eat meat and a shortened gut to balance the obscene energy requirement of our brain (which is highly energy hungry).Our brains have to jump through so many developemental hoops that the statistically small (although far greater than other similar body mass mammals) incidence of deveoplemental error (coupled with humans fantastic numbers) manisfests in many ways.One way is a total lack of empathy for other people. It is one of many errors that can arise from a fantastically intricate biological system.In simple terms, a spanner will rarely malfuction; a complex computer application (windows! I'm looking at you here) will be prone to errors.The thing to remember is that as long as the majority of human's brains work well enough to breed, there will be people with faulty brains.Thats why.

So, doing 'wrong' is some form of birth defect? That is what I am afraid of here. We all do wrong some of the time. If you are coming to a scientific understanding of 'meant to be' in regards to human empathy, and if we continue to be 'wrong' at least part of the time by not following our 'programming', that starts to sound an awful lot like a fallen nature. Then when you get your Ma Teresas and Jesus types, you say 'wow' that is how I am meant to be. You are subconsciously recognizing that you were not 'meant' to be imperfect.

I asked 'what is the purpose of right'. It is a valid question. If there is a purpose, an instinct, or an evolved empathy which helps us survive, your idea that some people need to be 'told' what is right is moot.

Just to be clear, if you ever have thought that I am laying down some version of what is 'right', I am not. I am only asking what 'right' means, and why it is so. You have said over and over, it just is. I agree things 'just are' but I believe they are that way for a reason. The sun is a certain distance from the earth, because it would be too hot or too cold here if it was anywhere else. There might be a reason why earth is in one part of the galaxy. There is a reason why we see different colors. Is there a reason we NEED to see color?So I ask, is there a reason we need to do right? Some have said it is survival. The story I told you is an example about telling the truth even when it hurts my survival. Well, I did. It was not because God told me to. It was because it was right. Btw, how have you disagreed with Kant? You and he both said lying was wrong. I did too. So, what does? Not a chance! Well, I am also interested in why you sometimes do the wrong thing and how you know the difference. no no no no no no no! that's for you I have a choice to do right. I am not forced to do it. I am not programmed to do right, an I have not evolved to do right. I do things of my own volition, same as you do. but they make sense for me, and for you they lead to 'I don't know why I do right, I just do'.

Consider something other than opening doors, such as caring for someone while they are sick. If you are well, and you do care for someone, then when you are sick, you will be cared for. If you ignore that person and let them die from illness, then when you are sick, you may die.Really, the same example could be applied to the door opening, if you introduce a load of boxes into the hands of one member. If you open the door for someone who has their hands full, then next time you need someone to do something that you would have trouble doing yourself, the favour will be available.So you see, you're in a better position than if you had to work alone.Edited by Doddy Curumehtar, : Added clarification

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"Der Mensch kann was er will; er kann aber nicht wollen was er will." (Man can do what he wills but he cannot will what he wills.) - Arthur Schopenhauer

I'm not out to tell people what "right" is. I want to know why they do "right".the question of "what is 'right'", and what its purpose is, is outside the scope of this discussion. start a new thread on it, if you wish.

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I disagree with Kant over "right". As I said, he argues that lying is wrong in every single case. I disagree there. He was an absolutist, in that, he believed in absolutes which apply in every case (unlike the absolutist movment in government). I'm a relativist when it comes to what's "right". Thus, for me, its "right" to lie to the murderer to save your friend. Besides, it's just a horrendous analogy.I know why I do the right thing--you just don't like the answer. As much as I don't like the answer of "godidit". Neither one explains "why" in real terms. Right now, I don't have a real term answer for the abstract "it just is". Sort of like the justice who argued that he knew porn when he saw.

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No, that is not what I am saying. People can be born with a brain set up that does not gear them up developementally to discriminate certain forms of non verbal communication.We say the wrong thing in a social group and we feel embaressed. We learn not to do the thing that makes us feel embaressed. If we could not detect a social gaff we would carry on breaking the social norms.If we commit an antisocial act and detect no sanctioning stimulous (either internally or externally) we will not learn not to do it.Empathy is simply a recognotion of someone elses internal state based on visual and audio queues given off by the observed individual.There is nothing mysterious about it. This is true. It also has nothing to do with empathy. We can 'do wrong' without coming into empathic conflict.

some people have gotten the idea that I'm saying that all religious people are only doing "right" because God tells them what is "right" and/or fear of said entity.Note that in my OP, I asked: (bolding my revision)
notice the total lack of all in the question?I'm not so stupid as to paint that wide a brush on people.

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I don't know. I have never met someone like that, let alone many people. I think I know what you mean, though.There are people who do 'good' out of fear. That happens both in religion, and out of it. Plenty of people will only drive slowly when a cop is on the other side of the highway. Some will drive slowly all of the time because it is safer.Some people will do 'good' because of fear of God, sure. Fear of God is a sort of respect, and is a good reason to do good. It is a better reason than to do good just for yourself, and a better reason than doing good just to save yourself from hell. it is doing good because God wants it, and not for selfish reasons.

That is a type of birth-defect. It is beside the point, as we are talking here about people who CAN function societally, and who choose to do good or evil.I asked you if we all have the same defect because we all fail to perceive wrong from time to time. If so, then this is like a fallen nature, as we are all born with the same defect.But let me see if I can apply your knowledge to the OP. If doing good is a learned behavior which stems from healthy brain developement, why do many people, as kuresu claims, only do good because of fear of God? Do people only do good for fear in general? (You have mentioned fear of social faux pas.) I hope that is not true. We tend to admire or despise those who do good even when it is socailly wrong Edited by anastasia, : No reason given.

yeah, I understand. I just thought we were supposed to open doors even for strangers Is it all about karma? I don't think so. I believe right is right, and has nothing to do with selfish motives or survival. Actually the more 'right' you are, usually the less selfish you are.

Hi, Larni, got a percentage figure on the brain`s energy consumption running at full revs c/f total requirements?

This is a response to the common belief by some religious types that people who do not follow a gods laws has no moral compass. It's not as simple as 'failing to percieve' is it? We often choose to make a choice that may be detrimental to others (or self) because of the short term gain.You can plot this type of behaviour experimentally very easily.We seem (as humans) to dislike usurping the rights of others as a general default position. However, this position is very easily reversed when we enter an emotional state. If we have malfunctions in our perception of our emotions (by even a slight degree - that may not show up until very specific situations occur) or the emotional pressure of the situation increases to a critical level we will act in a very selfish way.This is how we evolved to survive and has nothing to do with an imagined 'fall'.A good example of this is a drug addict. As the distress of withdrawal rises the actions the individual will undertake to reduce the distress become more extreme.People typically (with no biological motivation) do nasty things because they view it as a viable option when weighing up the cost/benefit equation.We each have a different equation in our head.

The brain consumes 20% of the body's energy. Does not seem much until you factor that it typically weighs in at about 2% of total body weight.Neurons have a high demand for energy, even during sleep. The electrochemical signals from one neuron to another (or NS cell) consume 50% of all the brain's energy (nearly 10% of the whole body's energy just in electrochemical activity).It's a hungry hungry hippo.