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Author Topic:   Why do right?
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 48 of 168 (380038)
01-26-2007 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by anastasia
01-25-2007 8:17 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
Why do you feel empathy for others?
This is hard wired into our brains. We have neurons called mirror cells that fire when we observe reactions in others. They mirror the expression or even physical action of the observed individual.
Thus we feel what others feel if it is expressed in a way we can percieve it.
No mystery.
ABE: People on the autistic spectrum disorder continuum sometimes display deficits in these neurons and can appear aloof and uncommunicative as they can not react well to empathic signals.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by anastasia, posted 01-25-2007 8:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 12:35 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 61 of 168 (380183)
01-26-2007 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by anastasia
01-26-2007 12:35 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
I don't want a 'how'. I want a 'why'. Why are we hard-wired to feel empathy for another? And how do you account for the fact that hard-wiring or no, some folk seem to feel zero empathy even if they aren't autistic?
If we could not do the things that humans do (be able to respond immediately to the emotional reactions of others) to allow ourselves to live together in a society that (for the most part) rubs along quite well (and remember we are talking about populations rather than individuals here), then we would most likely be extinct. Empathy is a form of communication that predates language. It serves a survival purpose to see from a glance that ones friend is afraid; that most likely means there are dangers about.
Our brains are vastly complex and we have had to make several developmental sacrifices to enable our biology to cope: brains that require big heads that cause serious problems when balanced against the width of the birth canal, long periods when the baby is useless at self preservation (even feeding), a brain that keeps developing structuarally after we are born (more so in males; this is why males have a higher incidence of post natal brain damage due to environmental factors), an energy requirement that could only be achieved when we eat meat and a shortened gut to balance the obscene energy requirement of our brain (which is highly energy hungry).
Our brains have to jump through so many developemental hoops that the statistically small (although far greater than other similar body mass mammals) incidence of deveoplemental error (coupled with humans fantastic numbers) manisfests in many ways.
One way is a total lack of empathy for other people. It is one of many errors that can arise from a fantastically intricate biological system.
In simple terms, a spanner will rarely malfuction; a complex computer application (windows! I'm looking at you here) will be prone to errors.
The thing to remember is that as long as the majority of human's brains work well enough to breed, there will be people with faulty brains.
Thats why.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 12:35 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 4:34 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 68 of 168 (380224)
01-26-2007 7:01 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by anastasia
01-26-2007 4:34 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
So, doing 'wrong' is some form of birth defect?
No, that is not what I am saying. People can be born with a brain set up that does not gear them up developementally to discriminate certain forms of non verbal communication.
We say the wrong thing in a social group and we feel embaressed. We learn not to do the thing that makes us feel embaressed. If we could not detect a social gaff we would carry on breaking the social norms.
If we commit an antisocial act and detect no sanctioning stimulous (either internally or externally) we will not learn not to do it.
Empathy is simply a recognotion of someone elses internal state based on visual and audio queues given off by the observed individual.
There is nothing mysterious about it.
ana writes:
We all do wrong some of the time.
This is true. It also has nothing to do with empathy. We can 'do wrong' without coming into empathic conflict.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 4:34 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 9:15 PM Larni has replied
 Message 73 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2007 5:20 AM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 74 of 168 (380393)
01-27-2007 6:40 AM
Reply to: Message 71 by anastasia
01-26-2007 9:15 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
why do many people, as kuresu claims, only do good because of fear of God?
This is a response to the common belief by some religious types that people who do not follow a gods laws has no moral compass.
ana writes:
I asked you if we all have the same defect because we all fail to perceive wrong from time to time.
It's not as simple as 'failing to percieve' is it? We often choose to make a choice that may be detrimental to others (or self) because of the short term gain.
You can plot this type of behaviour experimentally very easily.
We seem (as humans) to dislike usurping the rights of others as a general default position. However, this position is very easily reversed when we enter an emotional state. If we have malfunctions in our perception of our emotions (by even a slight degree - that may not show up until very specific situations occur) or the emotional pressure of the situation increases to a critical level we will act in a very selfish way.
This is how we evolved to survive and has nothing to do with an imagined 'fall'.
A good example of this is a drug addict. As the distress of withdrawal rises the actions the individual will undertake to reduce the distress become more extreme.
People typically (with no biological motivation) do nasty things because they view it as a viable option when weighing up the cost/benefit equation.
We each have a different equation in our head.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 9:15 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 01-27-2007 12:36 PM Larni has replied
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 01-27-2007 7:53 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 75 of 168 (380395)
01-27-2007 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Nighttrain
01-27-2007 5:20 AM


Re: Right and wrong
The brain consumes 20% of the body's energy. Does not seem much until you factor that it typically weighs in at about 2% of total body weight.
Neurons have a high demand for energy, even during sleep. The electrochemical signals from one neuron to another (or NS cell) consume 50% of all the brain's energy (nearly 10% of the whole body's energy just in electrochemical activity).
It's a hungry hungry hippo.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2007 5:20 AM Nighttrain has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by kuresu, posted 01-27-2007 11:09 AM Larni has not replied
 Message 80 by Nighttrain, posted 01-27-2007 6:55 PM Larni has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 76 of 168 (380396)
01-27-2007 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by anastasia
01-26-2007 9:03 PM


Re: correction
ana writes:
It is a better reason than to do good just for yourself,
What leads you to this conclusion?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by anastasia, posted 01-26-2007 9:03 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 81 of 168 (380537)
01-27-2007 7:22 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
01-27-2007 12:36 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Phat writes:
Well that explains why we have not yet evolved beyond Wars.
Yup,; I don't think we ever will.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 01-27-2007 12:36 PM Phat has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 85 of 168 (380643)
01-28-2007 6:46 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by anastasia
01-27-2007 7:53 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
You have not really shown why your brain has those signals,
I'm sorry Ana, but to look for purpose in biological systems is to put the cart before the horse. We can choose between to choices and lable one 'right' and one 'wrong' because of all of the previous examples of psychological explanation shown as to how the human brain works.
ana writes:
What we don't understand is what 'good' means to others.
Incorrect: all we have to do is ask and we will know what 'good' means to others.
ana writes:
They do not mean that good is only contained in your brain, only that this is where you can sense it.
Your brain can sense nothing at all. That is why we have specialized sense organs elsewhere in hte body (except for maybe the pineal gland, lol).
ana writes:
You seriously make it sound as if we had no CHOICE!!!!!
This point is already addressed:
Larni writes:
People typically (with no biological motivation) do nasty things because they view it as a viable option when weighing up the cost/benefit equation.
We each have a different equation in our head.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by anastasia, posted 01-27-2007 7:53 PM anastasia has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 139 of 168 (381175)
01-30-2007 4:39 AM
Reply to: Message 122 by anastasia
01-29-2007 1:17 PM


Re: Right and wrong
ana writes:
I am implying that I need God to tell me to feel empathy
So without a god you would become, what?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by anastasia, posted 01-29-2007 1:17 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 01-30-2007 6:49 AM Larni has replied
 Message 144 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 6:39 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 141 of 168 (381198)
01-30-2007 7:34 AM
Reply to: Message 140 by Phat
01-30-2007 6:49 AM


Re: Right and wrong
Hmm.
I see.
To rephrase.
If there were no xian god, what would become of moral Ana?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Phat, posted 01-30-2007 6:49 AM Phat has not replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 149 of 168 (381383)
01-30-2007 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by anastasia
01-30-2007 6:39 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Then withdraw from the discussion.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 6:39 PM anastasia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 9:16 PM Larni has replied

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 156 of 168 (381460)
01-31-2007 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 151 by anastasia
01-30-2007 9:16 PM


Re: Right and wrong
Ana writes:
Bored, as I now am with this discussion - God.
Pretty dismissive of our discussion, don't you think?
My point was: if you are bored of the discussion, withdraw from it.
What other way did you expect me to interpret your response?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by anastasia, posted 01-30-2007 9:16 PM anastasia has not replied

  
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