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Author Topic:   Religious tolerance and multiculturalism
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(2)
Message 7 of 77 (622722)
07-06-2011 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Butterflytyrant
07-04-2011 10:44 PM


The problem arises when we are required to pretend, in the name of tolerance, that all religions are true.
And the problem with phrasing the problem this way, of course, is that no such problem exists. Accepting that people have the right to live their lives the way they want to until they start harming others does not require accepting the truth of their beliefs.
'Multiculturalism' is not restricting people's freedom of speech. If you say something that offends people, it's possible people will attack you for it. When people's religious beliefs cause them to be offended by stupid irrelevancies, when their religious beliefs sanction violent relatliation, and when they feel like they're being victimised by wide society, they will sometimes strike back violently. The Mohammad cartoons weren't banned, people who reacted violently were arrested and charged. This is how freedom of expression laws work in our society, and I can't see the problem here.
Laws do not take into account every religious need - nor do they attempt to. It's not possible to practice a religion which requires you to violate some fundamental standard of the community - human sacrifice is not allowed, whether your religion requires it or not.
Your propsed solution is abhorrent and bizarre, and I fail to see how it addresses the problems you purport to see. One of the issues you raised was that of being unable to save the Jehovah's Witness who refused a blood transfusion. Why would this problem go away if Jehovah's Witnesses were all segregated from wider society, as you suggest. At least, at the moment, it is possible for a court to give a doctor authority to override the parent's wishes, as has happened with younger children. In the Jehovah's Witness ghetto of the future, this couldn't happen.
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To solve your problem, we need to understand exactly what it is, and I don't think your examples really present any coherent criticism. What, specifically, do you mean by 'multiculturalism' in this context?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-04-2011 10:44 PM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 8 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-06-2011 9:55 AM caffeine has replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 56 of 77 (626289)
07-28-2011 8:41 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by Butterflytyrant
07-06-2011 9:55 AM


Sorry that I never replied to this before - I forgot all about this topic.
Of course there are issues in society causing tensions - this is normal in any society of any size with any make-up. The problem is was referring to that doesn't exist is this:
quote:
It is not possible for everyones religious beliefs to be catered for as if they were all true
That's true, and is probably one of the reasons it's never been attempted anywhere, to my knowledge. Allowing somebody to peacefully practice their religion doesn't require anbody to pretend it's true. It just requires us to let them do their thing. Allowing somebody to hop around in his garden making monkey noises doesn't require us to pretend that anything is true, why should letting someone pray to Mecca or wear a turban?
We do make exceptions for religious requirements sometimes, but this doesn't require us to pretend their tenets of faith are true. We don't have to pretend anything, we just have to accept that this (wearing turbans, for example) is important to some group in society, and ask whether allowing them to do so is any significant danger or detriment to society. There are borderline cases that are being argued about. The full-body covering burka is a big issue in many European countries at the minute - some have banned it in public on the grounds of security, though I'd put this down more to xenophobia. Halal meat's another borderline issue, which is currently being banned in the Netherlands.
If someone goes around demanding death to people who draw cartoons of Mohammad, or actually carrying out these threats, then the problem is not with society. The problem is with them. And we don't pretend their behaviour is oky because we're accepting their religion as true. We send them to prison for inciting violence, or assault, or murder, or whatever it is they're getting up to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-06-2011 9:55 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-29-2011 12:26 AM caffeine has replied
 Message 58 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-29-2011 12:33 AM caffeine has not replied

  
caffeine
Member (Idle past 1054 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


Message 60 of 77 (626402)
07-29-2011 6:29 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Butterflytyrant
07-29-2011 12:26 AM


unfortunately this is not true. We do pretend their behavior is ok and we respond to it in the way they demand. Your example of the cartoons is the perfect example. In most of the world, nearly every newspaper, magazine and TV station self censored the cartoons. They gave up their right to freedom of speech. They gave up their right to parody a figure. An act that is acceptable in their own culture and society. They gave this right up in order to appease an aggresive group.
Nobody pretended that the violent reactions of some protestors were okay. The cartoons were republished all over Europe, far more than they would have been if not for the protests. Those who chose not to publish them did so for various reasons - some found the cartoons offensive and needlessly provocative; some were afraid of losing customers by offending them, or afraid of inviting retaliation from nutters. None of this means accepting that those demanding death to the infidels were okay.
Nowhere were the cartoons banned. People who went around waving banners demanding death to the infidels were charged and convicted of inciting religious hatred in Britain. People who planned violent retaliation in Denmark were caught and charged. Their behaviour was not accepted.
We cant save the lost lives. But we can work to prevent future losses. Beiviks message was clear.
To summarise your lengthy post, one guy, enraged at the faults he saw in society, murdered a bunch of people. Therefore, society is failing. Anders Breivik is a deranged sociopath - the fact that he can rationally explain what he's doing doesn't change that. One of the ideas suggested in his manifesto was the use of tactical nuclear weapons at various points in European cities, to bankrupt the 'multiculturalist, cultural Marxist, socialist' governments quicker and speed up the 'inevitable' coming of European civil war.
Did the existence of Marxist terrorist groups in the 60s and 70s mean that European captitalism had failed, and was inevitably doomed?
That is what multiculturalism is. This is how it is practiced. Everyone must cater for the beliefs of others as if they were true. In my part of the world, we have to accept Ramadan as a reason to put Islamic workers onto light duties as if their religion is true.
No, no, no, no, no. Read what I said again. You are not accepting these peoples beliefs as true. You're accepting them as important to these people. It's not the same thing at all.
And is this true, anyway? There's nothing about Ramadan that requires Muslims to do less work. Are you saying that it's the law in Australia, or is it just the policy of the company you work for?
Edited by caffeine, : typo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-29-2011 12:26 AM Butterflytyrant has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by Butterflytyrant, posted 07-29-2011 1:47 PM caffeine has not replied

  
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