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Author Topic:   Irreducible complexity- the challenges have been rebutted (if not refuted)
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 96 of 112 (61627)
10-19-2003 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by Xzen
10-19-2003 1:10 PM


The Darwinian theory of Natural Selection has been accepted for many years now. Some scientists even prematurely accepted this theory as fact. However in 1993 a group of scientists from Berkley, Cambridge, Munich, and The University of Chicago have shown otherwise. The principal of Irreducible Complexity has been established that completely debunks Darwin’s theory of evolution labeling it as not being an adequate explanation for some of today’s findings.
Evolution is a fact, which has been observed. Simply, evolution is change and speciation due to change has been observed. The theory of evolution is not fact, but rather the theory that species in the past arose via random mutation and natural selection as is seen today.
Intel Design and IC have so far fallen short of refuting the Theory of Evolution (ToE). The mechanisms for ToE can be and have been observed. The mechanisms are:
1. Heritability: genetic traits must be passed on to subsequent generations.
2. Mutation: Imperfections in copying the DNA code or alteration by a genetic event such as horizontal gene transfer.
3. Natural selection: Ecological pressures that cause a differentiation in allele frequency.
All three of these have been observed, the only question is did it happen in the past?
The Darwinian Theory of Natural Selection states that nature is selective scrutinizing the slightest variations, rejecting those that are bad, preserving those that are good. He also states that if it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive slight modifications, his theory would absolutely break down. Another theory called Biological Predestination attempted to give a continuous argument dealing with the origins of life without intelligent design which brings together a theory that proteins were chemically attracted to each other and formed a chain that then managed to fold itself into a molecular machine outside of a cell. Dr. Dean Kenyon, Author of Biochemical Predestination, when challenged to explain how proteins could be assembled without DNA instruction was unable to prove that they could and began to doubt his own theory.
Firstly, the theory of abiogenesis, which you seem to be alluding to, has no bearing on evolution. Evolution starts with the first replicator. The first replicator could have been formed by design, but no supernatural force has yet been observed that designs things in the physical world. Also, catalytic RNA may have played some role in the first replicator, proteins may not have played a part till later in evolution. If you are arguing a protein first theory of abiogenesis, you would have to rule out RNA and DNA as having a role in the first replicator. DNA/Protein and RNA/protein complexes are very common today and they MAY have been dependent on each other in the firs replicator, who knows.
Secondly, no IDist has ever shown that a protein mechanism could NOT be formed by evolution, or slight modification over time. The IC of the eye is a good example where evolutionary mechanisms can explain co-depedence and complexity. There are several threads that cover this on this site.
Darwin did his best with what he had at the time to explain what he had seen just as early man had tried to explain lightning and thunder as a supernatural event. However I am not saying that the supernatural does not exist. The principal of Irreducible Complexity has been proven best by the Bacterial Flagellum. This bacterium has the design of a motor, appropriately called a Flageller motor, which is much like ones found on a boat. A drive shaft, engine, and a quarter turn hook for a propeller are all present. Scientists don’t use these terms out of convenience but because that is what they are. If any one of these was not present at the same time the others came about, the propeller would not function and would do nothing to help in the survival of the bacterium and thus according to Darwinian Theory would not have been carried on to the offspring of the organism.
ID still has not ruled out less complex and rudimentary flagellar motors that may have existed in the distant past. You are right, all proteins in their current configuration must be there in order to function AS WE KNOW IT TODAY, but you must first show that proteins can not change function over time. An analogy would be American societial dependence on electricity. Without electricity large american cities would turn into chaos, yet we know that large cities existed in the past without electricity. Electricity did away with dependence on horses, wood for heat, and gas for lights. Things changed in a way that masked prior function and organization.
However another Idea had been spurned from Irreducible complexity. This theory is called co-option. Co-option states that possibly a cell can borrow existing parts from other cells to build a new mechanism. Molecular Biologist Scott Minnich from the University of Idaho would argue the contrary. Dr. Minnich states that in the case of the Bacterial Flagellum there are at least thirty parts that could not have come from other molecular machines and only ten that could have been borrowed. Dr. Minnich goes on to say plainly that the flageller motor could not have been a product of Darwinian Theories. So then how is it that this propeller exists? Maybe it was the product of some intelligent designer as the evidence suggests, say today’s Scientists.
Again, I would ask Dr. Minnich how he has proven that these molecular machines could not have arisen through other mechanisms, namely evolution through mutation and natural selection. It usually comes down to a tautology: IC is proven by IC. No physical mechanisms, other than mutation and natural selection, has ever been observed that would indicate design.
Furthermore The thought that proteins formed and joined together in a functional way in some primordial pool is way out there! Scientists have found that the only way proteins are formed into a functional way is in the cells of an already existing organism. Something called DNA goes through a process which is called transcription which copies the DNA into a separate strand. This separate strand is called messenger RNA. The RNA is then moved from the nucleus of the cell to the ribosome which manufactures a chain of amino acids. This chain of amino acids is then taken to a barrel shaped machine which folds the chain into a functioning molecular machine. After the amino acids are arranged this newly built molecular machine is then moved to the part of the cell where they are to do their job.
Actually, I have personally made proteins outside of cells. Well not exactly, I used E. coli lysate devoid of DNA to produce protein from an introduced plasmid. It's known as in vitro protein expression . The system I used was from Roche, read more here. It still uses systems derived from DNA, but is done in the absence of cells, or in a "primordial soup" situation.
And so the theory of Natural Selection and Biochemical predestination falls apart just as Darwin himself said and as Dean H. Kenyon knows. Leading Scientists to use a more observational method in examining evidence. They can no longer rule out Intelligent design as a possibility but must except what the evidence clearly shows.
As soon as we see IC systems appear in an organism today with no history of such an IC system, we may start to look at ID. That is, a completely new flagellar system appears in a lab strain of E. coli that has never been seen before. However, this has not happened. Secondly, you still have not stated how a supernatural being has manipulated DNA, or if it were a physical designer, who designed the first designer. The evidence still clearly shows effects of evolution, and not ID.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Xzen, posted 10-19-2003 1:10 PM Xzen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Xzen, posted 10-19-2003 4:02 PM Loudmouth has replied
 Message 107 by Xzen, posted 10-23-2003 1:28 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 105 of 112 (61774)
10-20-2003 12:27 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by Xzen
10-19-2003 4:02 PM


from talkorigins speciation faq:
5.2.3 Speciation as a Result of Selection for Tolerance to a Toxin: Yellow Monkey Flower (Mimulus guttatus) At reasonably low concentrations, copper is toxic to many plant species. Several plants have been seen to develop a tolerance to this metal (Macnair 1981). Macnair and Christie (1983) used this to examine the genetic basis of a postmating isolating mechanism in yellow monkey flower. When they crossed plants from the copper tolerant "Copperopolis" population with plants from the nontolerant "Cerig" population, they found that many of the hybrids were inviable. During early growth, just after the four leaf stage, the leaves of many of the hybrids turned yellow and became necrotic. Death followed this. This was seen only in hybrids between the two populations. Through mapping studies, the authors were able to show that the copper tolerance gene and the gene responsible for hybrid inviability were either the same gene or were very tightly linked. These results suggest that reproductive isolation may require changes in only a small number of genes.
The faq also talks about the difficulty in defining species. If you would like other examples outside of the quote or the talkorigins website let me know. You might also look through the rest of the site since you may be directed there many times during this debate. The evos on EvC like to reference this talkorigiins because it condenses material that is spread across the internet and the author usually writes in a non-technical style which is more accessible for non-scientists. You may also want to check out the talkdesign website which is a branch of the talkorigins website.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Xzen, posted 10-19-2003 4:02 PM Xzen has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 108 of 112 (62379)
10-23-2003 1:39 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by Xzen
10-23-2003 1:28 PM


Xzen,
You argued that protein production could only happen inside of a cell. This is not true. The site I referred to should show that. So you agree that protein production does not have to occur in the cell? It could happen outside of a cell given the right conditions?
Although whole E. coli lysates are used, simpler systems could be used, as per your list of transcriptases and ribosomes. It's not a stretch of imagination that simpler and simpler versions of those enzymes could produce the needed outcome, or even catalytic RNA. My post was alluding to the fact that a cell membrane is not needed.
I would also understand that you read the rest of my previous post (#96), care to comment on ID and IC now that speciation has been observed?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by Xzen, posted 10-23-2003 1:28 PM Xzen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Mike Doran, posted 10-23-2003 5:36 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 110 of 112 (62426)
10-23-2003 7:00 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Mike Doran
10-23-2003 5:36 PM


Re: There is a a two parts answer of which only
This gets back to cirrus clouds--and a very specific idea of surface conductivities and proteins. There is a type of filter used in the tropical fish hobby industry called a protein skimmer. The way it works is bubbles lift up the proteins, which trap the air bubbles in the proteins, and cause them to be lighter than the ocean water. This is interesting because then winds would more simply lift the proteins into the clouds to take part in the sorting I have described in the thread below called "The Living Earth". That sorting occurs like electrophoresis, between cloud top and ionosphere behaving like cathode and anode, and causes cirrus with a charge to "band" and then feedback infra red heat in ways that not only feeds back wind and rain, but also causes sorting in the way that the nucleotides/proteins fall from the sky back down to repeat the process. Finally, it should be noted that proteins are able to carry charges of both positive and negative, whereas the nucleotides can only carry a net negative charge.
The only thing I am skeptical about is the medium in which the proteins are sorting. First, if banding were to occur they would have to carry an overall neutral charge (also called the isoeletric point or pI). In the lab, pI gradients are artificially constructed before protein banding occurs. The gradients are usually set up with small molecular weight acids and bases with varying pKa values that are at higher concentrations than the protein. I don't know the chemical composition of clouds, but it seems improbable that sorting could happen at an appreciable level.
Secondly, I don't know if clouds as a medium would be conducive to transporting proteins by electrostatic charge. You would have to show how winds, charges within the clouds themselves, and gravity will not disrupt sorting. That, and you usually need a continous liquid medium for this to happen instead of a nebulous water vapor.
My experience with meterological cycles and phenomena are not that great, but those are some of the hurdles I see.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Mike Doran, posted 10-23-2003 5:36 PM Mike Doran has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Mike Doran, posted 10-23-2003 10:00 PM Loudmouth has not replied

  
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