Based on what I read catching up on this thread, I still don't think we are even at the point that you understand what I am saying quite well enough. For example, you claim that I am trying to reconcile the synoptics and John which is not true. I tried to make it clear with my first post in this thread that I do believe they are in conflict. What I would like to do with this post is reset the conversation a little bit. Rather than having a battle of spitting off quick replies, lets take the time to do this right.
I starting writing a long reply when I sort of came to the conclusion that what we have here is a problem of semantics. I am starting to see that perhaps when we are saying the word "Passover" that we are meaning different things. With that in mind I would like to propose a couple of definitions that make things more explicit.
Passover Holiday - All the days that constitute the founding ritual in Exodus 12 including the Preparation, Feast, and week of the FOUB.
Passover Event - The evening of the actual plague event where the firstborn of Egypt were killed.
Passover Day - The day celebrated as a "high sabbath" consisting of the Passover Event plus the next morning through to the subsequent evening. This is the first day of the FOUB, the day the the Jews left Egypt. It is the day God instructed to hold as a "holy assembly" in Exodus 12:16.
Preparation Day - The daytime before the anniversary of the Passover Event when the lamb was sacrificed, feast was prepared, leavening burnt, etc.
Now lets start fresh by figuring out where we agree.
1. We both agree that the crucifixion happens after the anniversary of the Passover Event (the last supper) in the Synoptics.
2. We both agree that the crucifixion happens before the anniversary of the the Passover Event in John.
3. We both agree that the lambs were sacrificed on the 14th
So here I will describe where we perhaps still disagree and why is that important. Note that these may no longer be disagreements if we all accept the definitions above.
1. We perhaps disagree on when the Passover Day actually is. I think it is the 15th and you think it is the 14th. This disagreement may be settled if you are only saying that Passover Holiday starts on the 14th. Why this is important is because it gives us insight into the authors of the Gospels, to their theological motivations, and to their understanding of Jewish tradition. I hope you will agree with me that it would be a significant difference for Jesus to be crucified before Passover Day versus on Passover Day versus after Passover Day for both the believer, the skeptic, and the scholar.
2. We perhaps disagree that it is possible for the lambs to be slaughtered on Passover Day, again stipulation given to the definitions above.
As a side note, but I just wanted to mention it since there is a 3rd sub-thread concerning Peg's belief that the Preparation Day was the 13th. As I looked a little deeper online this weekend when I had 5 or 10 minutes, I WAS able to find a number of arguments similar to what Peg makes which is that the Preparation Day was the 13th. All the ones that I could find were fundamentalist Christian websites some even going as far as to say that the Jews didn't know how to read their own holy books and that they were sinfully celebrating the Passover wrong. I can't quite figure out why this matters to them so much as there is still quite the contradiction between the Synoptics and John regardless of when you date Passover. The only reason I mention this is that it seems that they are wrestling with part of the scripture that they are actually interpreting correctly which is the distinction between the Passover Day and the Preparation Day. This seems to be the only place were Peg and I agree and it is fundamental to understanding why I feel I am correct with regards to our disagreements.
You mentioned that you want to keep this argument about scripture and thats fine. Lets start with the actually "historical" Passover Event. Lets deconstruct it.
Exodus 12 writes:
1The LORD said to Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, 2 "This month shall be for you the beginning of months. It shall be the first month of the year for you. 3Tell all the congregation of Israel that on the tenth day of this month every man shall take a lamb according to their fathers' houses, a lamb for a household. 4And if the household is too small for a lamb, then he and his nearest neighbor shall take according to the number of persons; according to what each can eat you shall make your count for the lamb. 5Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male a year old. You may take it from the sheep or from the goats, 6and you shall keep it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill their lambs at twilight.(between the evenings) 7"Then they shall take some of the blood and put it on the two doorposts and the lintel of the houses in which they eat it. 8They shall eat the flesh that night, roasted on the fire; with unleavened bread and bitter herbs they shall eat it. 9Do not eat any of it raw or boiled in water, but roasted, its head with its legs and its inner parts. 10And you shall let none of it remain until the morning; anything that remains until the morning you shall burn. 11In this manner you shall eat it: with your belt fastened, your sandals on your feet, and your staff in your hand. And you shall eat it in haste. It is the LORD's Passover. 12For I will pass through the land of Egypt that night, and I will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgments: I am the LORD. 13 The blood shall be a sign for you, on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you, when I
strike the land of Egypt.
So starting with verse 6, God commands the lamb to be kept "until the fourteenth day". Just before evening begins, the slaughter the lambs and paint the door frames because that evening, the angel of death comes to kill all the firstborn of Egypt. They are supposed to be ready to leave, with not even enough time to use leaven in their bread. Daybreak of the next day is something important and they need to be ready.
Exodus 12 cont writes:
14"This day shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the LORD; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast. 15 Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. On the first day you shall remove leaven out of your houses, for if anyone eats what is leavened, from the first day until the seventh day, that person shall be cut off from Israel. 16On the first day you shall hold a holy assembly, and on the seventh day a holy assembly. No work shall be done on those days. But what everyone needs to eat, that alone may be prepared by you. 17And you shall observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread, for on this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt. Therefore you shall observe this day, throughout your generations, as a statute forever. 18 In the first month, from the fourteenth day of the month at evening, you shall eat unleavened bread until the twenty-first day of the month at evening. 19 For seven days no leaven is to be found in your houses. If anyone eats what is leavened, that person will be cut off from the congregation of Israel, whether he is a sojourner or a native of the land. 20You shall eat nothing leavened; in all your dwelling places you shall eat unleavened bread."
The curious thing to note about this passage is that God say, "Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread." but the range of dates is from "the fourteenth day of the month at evening", "until the twenty-first day of the month at evening". This is where some confusion gets introduced and is perhaps why Mark thinks that the FOUB starts on the 14th. If you count the days from the 14th to the 21st then there are 8 days if you are inclusive about the evenings on both of them. Either God cannot count, or this gives us a clue as to what they mean in Exodus when they say "at evening". I choose the latter.
For me it seems obvious that the evening in verse 18 is in reference to the same as the evening in verse 6 and it is clear that they started eating the unleavened bread that night after the lambs were slaughtered.
What is the "evening" after the lambs are slaughtered when the angel of death kills all the firstborn? The night that they had to get ready to leave the next morning and start eating unleavened bread? It is the 15th according to the way post-exilic Jews counted their days. That is the
Passover Event. The night that God spared the firstborn Jews and brought the plague to the rest of Egypt. That happens on the 15th of Nisan, the prior day is when they do all the work to prepare to leave Egypt. With regards to the holiday, that day in particular is the anniversary of the
Preparation Day which is the 14th.
The Passover Event hadn't happened yet and if the sequencing is not enough to convince you, God even says that the FOUB starts that next morning (the same "day" as the Passover Event) as "this very day I brought your hosts out of the land of Egypt".
So if the FOUB is on the day, immediatly after the evening of the Passover Event, we have other verses that help us drive this point home.
Leviticus 23 writes:
4 "These are the appointed feasts of the LORD, the holy convocations, which you shall proclaim at the time appointed for them. 5 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover. 6And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; for seven days you shall eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work. 8But you shall present a food offering to the LORD for seven days. On the seventh day is a holy convocation; you shall not do any ordinary work."
So when this verse mentiones Passover, what exactly is it talking about? Well, it also happens to mention the FOUB as being on the 15th. So I would equate "on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight, is the LORD's Passover" as meaning something akin to my definition of
Passover Holiday. You could only equate that phrase with the Passover Event if you reckon days according to modern standards with the days changing over at midnight.
Some verses make the same distinction as above:
Numbers 28 writes:
16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover, 17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. 18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Joshua 5 writes:
10While the people of Israel were encamped at Gilgal, they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening on the plains of Jericho. 11And the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain. 12And the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land. And there was no longer manna for the people of Israel, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.
Numbers 28 writes:
16 "On the fourteenth day of the first month is the LORD's Passover, 17 and on the fifteenth day of this month is a feast. Seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten. 18 On the first day there shall be a holy convocation. You shall not do any ordinary work,
Joshua 5 writes:
10While the people of Israel were encamped at Gilgal, they kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month in the evening on the plains of Jericho. 11And the day after the Passover, on that very day, they ate of the produce of the land, unleavened cakes and parched grain. 12And the manna ceased the day after they ate of the produce of the land. And there was no longer manna for the people of Israel, but they ate of the fruit of the land of Canaan that year.
Other verses make the distinction much clearer by stating specifically that the 14th is the Preparation Day.
II Chronicles 35 writes:
1 Josiah kept a Passover to the LORD in Jerusalem. And they slaughtered the Passover lamb on the fourteenth day of the first month.
...
11 And they slaughtered the Passover lamb, and the priests threw the blood that they received from them while the Levites flayed the sacrifices. 12And they set aside the burnt offerings that they might distribute them according to the groupings of the fathers' houses of the lay people, to offer to the LORD, as it is written in the Book of Moses. And so they did with the bulls. 13 And they roasted the Passover lamb with fire according to the rule; and they boiled the holy offerings in pots, in cauldrons, and in pans, and carried them quickly to all the lay people. 14And afterward they prepared for themselves and for the priests, because the priests, the sons of Aaron, were offering the burnt offerings and the fat parts until night; so the Levites prepared for themselves and for the priests, the sons of Aaron. 15The singers, the sons of Asaph, were in their place according to the command of David, and Asaph, and Heman, and Jeduthun the king's seer; and the gatekeepers were at each gate. They did not need to depart from their service, for their brothers the Levites prepared for them.
16So all the service of the LORD was prepared that day, to keep the Passover and to offer burnt offerings on the altar of the LORD, according to the command of King Josiah. 17And the people of Israel who were present kept the Passover at that time, and the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days. 18 No Passover like it had been kept in Israel since the days of Samuel the prophet. None of the kings of Israel had kept such a Passover as was kept by Josiah, and the priests and the Levites, and all Judah and Israel who were present, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem. 19In the eighteenth year of the reign of Josiah this Passover was kept.
Ezra 6 writes:
19 On the fourteenth day of the first month, the returned exiles kept the Passover. 20 For the priests and the Levites had purified themselves together; all of them were clean. So they slaughtered the Passover lamb for all the returned exiles, for their fellow priests, and for themselves. 21It was eaten by the people of Israel who had returned from exile, and also by every one who had joined them and separated himself from the uncleanness of the peoples of the land to worship the LORD, the God of Israel. 22And they kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread seven days with joy, for the LORD had made them joyful and had turned the heart of the king of Assyria to them, so that he aided them in the work of the house of God, the God of Israel.
II Chronicles and Ezra make it clear that this mention of Passover much more alike to my definition of Passover Holiday which is everything up through the FOUB.
The last thing to mention in support of this distinction is the "holy convocation" as described in Numbers 28 and elsewhere. This is described as is and in surrounding versus as compared to the Sabbath. You cannot do any work that day that you also could not do on Sabbath. No lamb slaughtering, no looking for leavening, no burning of leavening, no baking of bread, etc. It is a time of reflection and rememberance of the Exodus. This is the Passover Day according to my defintion and you will see how it fits in with the Gospels.
Mark 14 writes:
12 And on the first day of Unleavened Bread, when they sacrificed the Passover lamb, his disciples said to him, "Where will you have us go and prepare for you to eat the Passover?"
This is somewhat nonsensical by Mark as I previously said. The first day of the FOUB is Passover Day is the day they were leaving Egypt after the plague, not the day they were killing lambs and painting their doorways. The whole concept of the FOUB is that they didn't have time to bake bread with leavening because they were getting the heck out of dodge. If Mark is talking about the daytime before the anniversary of Passover Event then he is talking about the Preparation Day plain and simple. Remember that when Mark was written there was no more temple and therefore no more sacrafices. The Jews for a long time now had been absorbing into different cultures and were experimenting with different ways of keeping their traditions alive. This helps date Mark and since the other Synoptics copy him it also dates them.
Then there is nothing to suggest it is anything other than the same night, in fact Mark 15 says:
Mark 15 writes:
1 And as soon as it was morning, the chief priests held a consultation with the elders and scribes and the whole Council. And they bound Jesus and led him away and delivered him over to Pilate.
So the evening of the anniversary of the Passover Event is when Jesus is arrested. The next morning is Passover Day, the high Sabbath when they are taking Jesus to trial. This is obviously weird but it is what it is.
We know it is at least still the FOUB because:
Mark 15 cont writes:
6 Now at the feast he used to release for them one prisoner for whom they asked.
Which is also rediculous. But it is a time marker. What PD claims about them waiting until after the FOUB is not supported IMO. That same day:
Mark 15 cont writes:
15So Pilate, wishing to satisfy the crowd, released for them Barabbas, and having scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.
There is no indication that more time passed before the cruficixion therefore Jesus was crucified on Passover Day, the "real" first day of the FOUB.
John is different as you know from several verses but this one the most distinct IMO:
John 19 writes:
31Since it was the day of Preparation, and so that the bodies would not remain on the cross on the Sabbath (for that Sabbath was a high day), the Jews asked Pilate that their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away.
The day of Preparation here is with respect to Passover because it describes it as "that Sabbath was a high day". In other words, not just your run of the mill Sabbath. And since we knew from previous verses in John the proximity to Passover (his accusers wouldn't enter into the court) and the theology of Jesus as the Paschal Lamb, this day is therefore the Preparation Day for the Passover. The anniversary of the Passover Event and the subsequent Passover Day would have followed after Jesus was buried.
So in the Synoptics you have: Preparation Day = 14th, Passover Day = 15th, Jesus Crucified
In John you have: Preparation Day = 14th, Jesus Crucified, Passover Day = 15th. Different order.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. --Thomas Jefferson
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