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Author | Topic: Passover problems in the Gospels | |||||||||||||||||||||||
purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Read the scripture carefully. Passover is the 15th. Jazzns is correct. The lamb is slaughtered at twilight on the 14th. (Exodus 12:6)That night, which for Jews is now the next day, they were to cook and eat the meat on the 15th. (Exodus 12:8) God passed over them that night, not before twilight. The Feast of Unleavened Bread is the next day after the Passover meal. (Exodus 12:17)
Passover Story So when we look at the Book of Mark we see the author is incorrect. It was not customary to sacrifice the Passover lamb on the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Overlooking that, Jesus was eating the Passover meal. They prepared it on the 14th and after twilight they ate the meal which is then the 15th and Passover. The Gospel of John isn't specific. Jesus could still be viewed as eating the Passover meal. The words "just before" doesn't tell us how much time. It could be a few minutes before it was served. It could be a day or two. Given that the evening meal was being served, I would say that it was the Passover meal being served. The author of John didn't go into as much detail.
quote:The scripture shows the lamb is slaughtered on the 14th and Passover is on the 15th. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:He didn't, but he was describing the event correctly. Jewish days go from nightfall to nightfall. Between the two evenings means between dusk and dawn. The lamb is slaughtered on the 14th. The 15th starts after dark. The lamb is eaten after dark on the 15th. The FOUB starts the morning of the 15th. Think of the Exodus story. Read the whole Exodus story. They killed the lambs at twilight and spread the blood over the door.They cooked and ate the lamb later that evening as the horror passed over those who put blood on the door. The next day they supposedly left so fast that they didn't have time to put leaven in their bread. quote:No the Synoptics put the FOUB on the day they slaughter the lambs.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Not really. You're making more out of the numbers than necessary for the point you're trying to make. They slaughter the passover lamb, they eat the passover meal, the FOUB starts the next day. That was the order in the OT. The tradition of reckoning the day from sunset to sunset may have been a later Jewish custom picked up from Babylon. Leviticus and sections of Exodus are priestly writings from when they were in Babylon. So the thoughts can be conflicting. Also remember in the 1st century, there were very strict rules about working on the Sabbath. More so than in the OT. Passover is considered a sabbath day. To denote the day I'm going to use 6pm to 6pm. So what Jazzns and I are saying is that on the 14th the lamb was slaughtered or sacrificed. This takes time. All the blood had to be drained out etc. Since no work was allowed on a Sabbath, they couldn't do the sacrifice and the meal preparation on the sabbath. So sometime between 6pm to 6pm on the 14th the lamb and the meal were prepared. The lamb is to be slaughtered on the 14th. 6:01pm is now the 15th. The meal has to be eaten before morning. The following morning, which is still the 15th, the FOUB begins. The FOUB doesn't allow regular work supposedly. Even if they slaughtered the lamb after 6pm on the 14th and ate the Passover meal at night on the 14th and the the FOUB started after 6pm on the 15th. Jesus was still eating a Passover meal. Judaism did a lot of changing through the years while they were in exile and after the destruction of the second temple. They were influenced, just like Christianity was, by those that ruled them and the religions around them. Who knows, in the original Exodus story, day may have been reckoned from sunrise to sunrise and the lamb was sacrificed at sunset and eaten in the middle of the night and the 15th started at sunrise the next morning. But given the strict rules concerning work on the Sabbath, I would say in the first century, the Passover was probably on the 15th that started at 6pm. But, like I said, the number of the day is really irrelevant to the point you are trying to present. I feel the authors of the Synoptics and the author of John were implying that Jesus ate the Passover meal.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
Ok I'm awake now. I assume this post is a reply to me and not Peg.
From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover? I read all the way through John and I agree that in that book Jesus did not eat the Passover meal. I disagree that Jesus was crucified on Passover day in either book. See Table for comparison of Mark and John. Although looking at Mark and John, they both say he was crucified on the Day of Preparation. Notice Mark 14.
Now the Passover and the Feast of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and he teachers of the law were looking for some sly way to arrest Jesus and kill him. But not during the Feast, they said, "or the people may riot." The story in Mark doesn't really give a timeline after he ate the Passover. We've assumed that all this happened quickly, but did it really? He went to the Mount of Olives before he went to Gethsemane or are those separate narratives. We don't know how much time is between the Mount of Olives and Gethsemane. If the chief priests and the teachers of the law stayed true to what they supposedly said, then they would have waited until the Feast of Unleavened Bread was finished. So in the Synoptics Jesus was able to eat the Passover meal, but Jesus probably wasn't arrested until after the FOUB was over and was crucified on a Preparation Day for the Sabbath. In the book of John it appears Jesus was crucified on a Preparation Day before the Passover. Personally, I don't think they really know. At least they agreed it was a preparation day. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:The link isn't my argument. It is just support for a portion of it and to show you the difference between the 14th and the 15th. Unfortunately, you still don't understand. I'm disagreeing with the table concerning Mark. I'm not going to get into the numbers with you, since they are irrelevant and you don't seem to understand. (The chart of Mark shows the passover on the 15th.)
quote:I agreed that in the book of John, it appears Jesus was killed before Passover. So the last supper was not the Passover meal. Yes that contradicts the Synoptics. It isn't surprising though since the book of John is a later writing and seemed to Hellenize Jesus. As I said concerning the book of Mark: If the chief priests and the teachers of the law stayed true to what they supposedly said, then they would have waited until the Feast of Unleavened Bread was finished. We don't really know the timeline in Mark. We've assumed. If they didn't do anything until after the feast, the Day of Preparation may have been for the weekly Sabbath. There could have been more than a week before Jesus was crucified.
quote:In the Book of John, Jesus was killed the day before the Passover Seder. Supposedly the 14th. In the Book of Mark, Jesus was killed some time after the Passover Seder if not after the FOUB. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Because you don't seem to understand that time has passed between the OT and the NT. Traditions evolved. As I said in Message 32, reckoning the day from sunset to sunset was Babylonian influence. When the priests were writing about the past, they needed to write as things were, not as they had become. So in the OT, Passover was probably eaten after dark on the 14th with the 15th starting at sunrise. In the NT, the Jews reckoned the day from sunset to sunset. The lamb still had to be slaughtered on the 14th and the Passover meal still had to be eaten between the twilights. Also in the first century, the laws about not working on a sabbath were extremely strict. The Rabbis had created a fence around the torah. A gezeirah is a law instituted by the rabbis to prevent people from accidentally violating a Torah mitzvah. We commonly speak of a gezeirah as a "fence" around the Torah. For example, the Torah commands us not to work on Shabbat, but a gezeirah commands us not to even handle an implement that you would use to perform prohibited work (such as a pencil, money, a hammer), because someone holding the implement might forget that it was Shabbat and perform prohibited work. The word is derived from the root Gimel-Zayin-Reish, meaning to cut off or to separate. As I showed in Message 22, the lamb is slaughtered at twilight in Exodus, not at noon. Also remember that in Exodus, the people slaughtered their own lambs. They didn't take them to a temple and have to wait for a priest to make the sacrifice. In the first century, it would take time for the priests to get all the lambs slaughtered and drained of blood. Also notice that in Exodus, the Israelites were supposed to pick their lamb on the 10th and take care of it until the 14th. The NT doesn't mention whether Jesus and his disciples did that or not, but in the first century, I seriously doubt if the Jews who weren't farmers had the space for a lamb, let alone the means to feed it. The Jews of the first century were supposedly vegetarian. The Passover Memorial changed to accommodate the civilization of the time. Jews today don't slaughter their own lambs, or take it to a temple, or eat the whole lamb. They serve a shank bone to represent the lamb. Some aren't even eating a lamb.
Since we can't offer the Paschal sacrifice in the absence of the Holy Temple, we take care to use something that is relatively dissimilar to the actual offering. Accordingly, many communities have the custom to use a roasted chicken neck or the like. So the specifics surrounding the Passover Seder can and have changed over time. Therefore, we have to look at what was going on in the first century. They may not have had a lamb sacrificed, they may have just bought enough lamb or goat for "sandwiches".
Hillel, the famous rabbi of Jesus' childhood, said that there were three things that were essential to a Passover celebration. These were the Paschal lamb, unleavened bread (matzah) and bitter herbs. He suggested that these were eaten (`bound') together, making a kind of sandwich. It is thought that this might have been the method used to eat the very small piece of Paschal lamb. Each of these things was to remind the descendants of those who came out of Egypt what God had done for Israel. The lamb would remind them that God had passed over their homes; the unleavened bread would remind Israel that God had redeemed them; and the bitter herbs would remind them of the bitterness of slavery under the Egyptians. The OT scripture tell us how the Passover started, but it doesn't tell us how it was practiced in the first century. In the first century, when a day was reckoned from sunset to sunset, the lamb was sacrificed on the 14th at the temple. The Passover Seder was eaten after 6pm on the 15th between the twilights. Show evidence of first century Passover traditions if you disagree with what I've said concerning the passover. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:As I explained, the sunset to sunset was picked up while in Babylon. It probably wasn't at the time of Moses. Show me that it was at the time of Moses. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Leviticus was a priestly writing. Written after Babylonian influence. Exodus and Deuteronomy don't really make it clear if after sunset it is considered the next day. I think that is why hERICtic is getting confused. I'm not disagreeing with you concerning how the passover is eaten in the first century or when it is. I'm looking at the possibility that at the time the Exodus the Hebrews would have reckoned the day from sunrise to sunrise as the Egyptians did. The Jews have also been under sunrise to sunrise rulers since the exile and have had to adjust festivals accordingly. As I said, it really is irrelevant to his argument. We have to know what they actually did in the first century. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Good grief! A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments) To eat the flesh of the Paschal sacrifice on the night of the fifteenth of Nissan (Ex. 12:8) (affirmative). quote:As have I, so stop arguing about it. If you keep arguing about it then show evidence of how the event was practiced in the first century. quote:I disagree. The synoptics have Jesus crucified on a preparation day and the chief priests said they wouldn't do anything during the festival. He can't be crucified on a preparation day before a sabbath and on passover day.
quote:Are you changing your position? From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:Symbolic of what? Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I agree that's probably the purpose of the writer.
It is a shame that Christianity ruins it by also claiming he was a sacrifice for sin, since the sacrifice of the Passover lamb had nothing to do with sin. The sin issue was Paul's theme. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
I have the feeling you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.
quote:Easy. I've explained this twice. We don't really know the time frame after Jesus ate and when he went to the Mount of Olives. Since the chief priest said they wouldn't do anything until after the feast, which would imply the FOUB and not just a meal; they would not have arrested Jesus during the feast. (Logistically, I don't think they had time to do all they supposedly did.) Since they have already eaten the Passover meal in Mark, the preparation day can't be the preparation for the Passover meal/sabbath. In the Synoptics, Jesus is not crucified at the same time as the Passover lambs.
quote:Slow down and read what people post. There's no excuse for not checking your own opening post to check the quote. It is your quote. Read your OP and familiarize yourself with your position. quote:You're kidding right? This is why I feel you are arguing just for the sake of arguing. Not a good reputation to start. I've already agreed that Jesus did not eat the Passover meal in John.I've already agreed that Jesus did eat the Passover meal in the Synoptics. Therefore, in the book of John, Jesus was not crucified on the Day of Passover. Looking at the Book of Mark, I think a case can be made the Jesus probably wasn't crucified on the Day of Passover either. In all four Gospels, Jesus was killed and buried on the Day of Preparation. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
My prediction is this thread is just about ready to stall. This is my last post as a participant.
Your position is inconsistent and I don't really have time to play games. I have actually explained my discovery concerning the chief priests in Mark 4 times. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51, and Message 56) The point being that if the chief priests meant what they said, Jesus probably wasn't crucified on Passover, especially since he was buried on a sabbath preparation day.
quote:I haven't disagreed that the lamb is an issue in the book of John. The lamb issue wasn't part of your opening post. (That's Message 1) In your opening post, your question was whether Jesus ate the Passover meal in the book of John. hERICtic writes: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? That Jesus was killed on the Passover? quote:This is what I wrote in Message 51. PurpleDawn writes: Are you changing your position?From your OP: Is anyone in disgreement that Jesus could not have eaten the Passover meal in John? Jesus is not killed on Passover in the book of John. He is killed on a preparation day. Remember, the priests didn't want to be rendered unclean and unable to partake of the passover meal. The italicized portion is from your OP and is exactly what you quoted above. The next paragraph is mine and not attributed to you. When you quoted them in Message 55, you ran them together.
quote:I assume you mean Jesus and I have already agreed several times that in the book of John, Jesus does not appear to have eaten the Passover meal. (Message 36, Message 41, Message 51 and Message 56) Apology not extended.
quote:Join the club! Good Day. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
quote:No I haven't. Please don't use me as support for your confusion.
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purpledawn Member (Idle past 3487 days) Posts: 4453 From: Indiana Joined: |
The kicker is that the Passover as a celebration to memorialize the Exodus wasn't celebrated for over 700 years. (2 Chronicles 35:18) Probably because the ceremony wasn't set up until the priestly writings.
From the Jewish Virtual Library on Passover in the Critical View section we see that the Passover and Feast of Unleavened Bread began separately.
The feast of Passover consists of two parts: The Passover ceremony and the Feast of Unleavened Bread. Originally both parts existed separately; but at the beginning of the Exile they were combined. It is interesting to note that the Passover was a nomadic custom later attached to the Exodus.
Originally the Passover was celebrated by transient breeders of sheep and goats, later by the Israelites, to secure protection for their flocks prior to leaving the desert winter pasture for cultivated regions (Rost). The rite of the blood (see above) as well as the regulation, which was later still in force (Ex. 12:46b; cf. Num. 9:12), whereby no bone of the Passover animal was to be broken, had an apotropaic significance. The oldest literary record in Exodus 12:21 (J) already presupposes the Passover. Hence the old nomadic custom is "historicized" by being connected with the main event in the Israelite salvation history, the Exodus. The reference in Joshua may be referring to the nomadic custom and not the Exodus custom. Food for thought. Even the Feast of Unleavened Bread was not originally attached to Passover.
Originally the feast extended over a week beginning not on the day following the Paschal night, but on a "morrow after the Sabbath." The counting of the seven weeks until the "Feast of Weeks" (Pentecost; Lev. 23:11, 15—16) was also to begin on the "morrow after the Sabbath." In Deuteronomy 16:9 it is described as the day on which the Israelites "first put the sickle to the standing grain" and the grain harvest is begun. Because of its proximity to the traditional date of the Exodus, the matzot feast was also connected with the Exodus and thus "historicized" (e.g., Ex. 12:29—34, 37—39 [J]; cf. 12:15—20; 23:15; 34:18 [P]; Deut. 16:3b). A little probable reality behind the story. So the month was originally called Abib but was changed to Nissan in the Exile. It's obvious that the Synoptics and the author of John differ on when Jesus died. John had his purpose for placing the crucifixion at the time the animals were sacrificed. It fit with the imagery of his theme. Scripture is like Newton’s third law of motionfor every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. In other words, for every biblical directive that exists, there is another scriptural mandate challenging it. -- Carlene Cross in The Bible and Newton’s Third Law of Motion
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