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Author Topic:   Two wrongs don't make a right (the (ir)rationality of revenge) - also gun control
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 59 of 452 (519171)
08-12-2009 7:16 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Legend
08-12-2009 6:54 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
I'm sorry, I can't follow your logic.
You agree that America is a much more violent society than Canada or the UK. Yet you say it is ok for a much more violent society to have easy access to guns? Wouldn't it be better to take away guns from a violent society?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 6:54 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 7:30 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 61 of 452 (519184)
08-12-2009 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by Legend
08-12-2009 7:30 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Still, wouldn't a violent society benefit from as few guns as possible? The less violent people have guns, the less deaths they will cause with them.
Also, do you think every country in the world also needs to have nuclear weapons? This levels the playing field, afterall?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 7:30 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 9:20 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 64 of 452 (519198)
08-12-2009 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 62 by Legend
08-12-2009 9:20 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
On the flipside, the more decent people have guns the less chance they have of being killed by the violent ones.
At the cost of seriously injuring or killing the violent ones? Or both getting shot?
You can't be absolute and categorically claim that fewer guns will result in fewer deaths.
Coupled witht he fact of known high violence, as you agreed to, you can.
It depends on who's got them and what they use them for.
Violent people, for outing their violence. Or "non-violent" people, for shooting the violent ones, who also have them.
As an example -and since you mentioned nuclear weapons- it's now generally accepted that the Mutually Assured Destruction paradigm between the US and the USSR resulted in less people being killed than they would have if one of the two sides didn't have a strong nuclear arsenal.
So? In a fit of rage, do you care about that when you grab your gun? What if Chroustjev (or Kennedy) had gone insane and launched the weapons? Would it still have been a good idea then?
Weapons proliferation and a level nuclear playing field actually saved human lives.
Yet continue to endanger it....
Like I said, it depends on what they want them for.
For killing other countires, or killing hte country that wants to kill you. The effects will be equally horrible though.
If your country was next on the list to be invaded by the US wouldn't you just wish you had nuclear weapons?
No, not in a million years. I'd fight the enemy coutry, but never would I want such a horrible wepon to be used ever again, not even as "deterrent".

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 9:20 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 66 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 10:53 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 67 of 452 (519206)
08-12-2009 11:07 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Legend
08-12-2009 10:53 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
You see cost, I see benefit.
You see injuring or killing a human being as a benefit? Wow...just...wow....
Both getting shot is a better result for society than just the victim getting shot.
Again, you think shooting a human being is a GOOD thing?
Yet I've already shown you how two military blocks with aggressive, expansionist policies ended up with *more* guns but *fewer* deaths for nearly half a century.
Nuclear weapons, not guns. And they're still threatening every life on this planet.
What ifs don't really matter.
Heh, same can be said to you. What if "if I don;t have a gun I can't defend myself" doesn't really matter?
The fact remains that for nearly half a century the USA and USSR didn't attack each other for fear of their own survival.
So? They still have the weapons. And so continue to be a threat to human life.
Just like a rationally-thinking burgalr won't enter a house if they know their life to be at risk by doing so.
Really? So there are almost no burglaries in the united states concerning people who own guns? I don't believe you.
so what? would you have rather had the USA nuclear arsenal destroyed, resulting in hundreds of thousands of deaths by the USSR invasion of central Europe so that you can feel a little safer today?
Ifs don't matter, remember. You don't know they would have invaded, and even if they had, nuclear weapons are far too terrible a weapon. I don't like war either, but at least conventional weapons don't wipe out entire countries.
I assume then, by extension, that if an armed intruder entered your house you'd rush to fight them off with a...butter knive?
No, probably a baseball bat.
...washing up liquid? ....anything but a gun, right?
Yep. Guns get people killed.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 10:53 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 11:45 AM Huntard has replied
 Message 69 by Rahvin, posted 08-12-2009 11:57 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 70 of 452 (519215)
08-12-2009 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by Legend
08-12-2009 11:45 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
what?! you mean you don't see the benefit of killing someone like that or this one? or even these ones? Wow.....you obviously just don't give a shit about their victims!
I do care about their victims. Unlike you, I value human life. I didn't say they shouldn't be punished, I said I think hurting or killing another human being is wrong. By the way, you mentioned Hitler, you lose. Thank you Godwin.
and I thought you valued human life.
I do, you obviously don't.
Not just any human being. Some specific human beings yes absolutely.
Despicable.
Irrelevant.
Sure...Rather have something that can kill the whole planet 6 times over, as long as you feel safe, right?
....??...that doesn't even make sense!
You're the one claiming what ifs don't matter, not me.
The point is that it illustrates that armed deterrent *does* work. Like I've been claiming all along.
Except of course for the fact it doesn't. People who own guns have the same bad stuff happen to them as people who don't. Only less people get hurt when there are no guns around.
As I've mentioned in a previous post burglary rate in the US is half that in the UK. Correlation? maybe, maybe not.
So, you're not even sure that's because of guns, yet you claim it is? By the way, what's the rate of people being killed with guns in the US and the UK? Correlation...?
Yes we do. Invasion plans had already been drawn. Thousands of people would have been killed.
So, the fact that the US has invasion plans for Northern Korea, Iran, and a whole bunch of other countries (as any country who is serious about their defence should have) means they will actually go there and invade?
errrr.....yes......that's the whole point.
Ok. So you don't care about human life. Good to know.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 11:45 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 3:42 PM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 72 of 452 (519239)
08-12-2009 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Legend
08-12-2009 2:39 PM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
including one's right to protect oneself, one's family and one's property in the manner which one considers the most effective and less risky
I consider a device that will destroy the entire planet and everything on it as the most effective and less risky. Should I be allowed to get that device and use it as I see fit to protect myself and my loved ones?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 71 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 2:39 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 7:20 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 77 of 452 (519295)
08-13-2009 12:45 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Legend
08-12-2009 3:42 PM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
Why?
Because we only got one life, and taking that away is not smething I think other people should do.
Speaking of which (Hitler not Godwin), if you had a chance to kill him before he came to power I presume that you wouldn't do it, as you value human life so strongly.
What ifs don't matter, remember. Renders the rest of your little rant moot.
Unfortunately we don't all share your virtue and lofty principles, I'm humbled to admit.
Ooh...sarcasm....
Do you think I'll go to hell?
No. I don't believe in hell, or heaven. Nor do I think anyone deserves eternal torment, whatever they've done.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Legend, posted 08-12-2009 3:42 PM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 9:20 AM Huntard has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 81 of 452 (519317)
08-13-2009 7:26 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by Legend
08-13-2009 7:20 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
No, because that would violate other people's rights and liberties.
Their rights and liberties interfere with my rights and liberties. Now what?
Also, you state in your response to Rahvin:
Legend writes:
The right to defend my family and property -and by extension my liberty- from harm, without endangering it, should be paramount.
So, my rights to protect my loved ones with that device are paramount.
Edited by Huntard, : No reason given.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 7:20 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 8:24 AM Huntard has replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 83 of 452 (519328)
08-13-2009 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by Legend
08-13-2009 8:24 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
Legend writes:
How so? Please explain!
Their rights and liberties say I can't use my rights and liberties to defend my family as I see fit. A liberty you called paramount.
Yes, but not by violating the rights of other people who haven't interfered with yours.
But they are, by not allowing me to use the device.
Nice selective-quoting BTW.
Your post is two posts above mine, anyone can read the entire thing there.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 8:24 AM Legend has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2324 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 85 of 452 (519331)
08-13-2009 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by Legend
08-13-2009 8:58 AM


Re: Guns don't kill people, people kill people.
So, when I post a "what if" question your response is:
What ifs don't matter.
Yet when YOU ask one, they're suddenly a:
...valid debating technique ...
I'm not following this logic.

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 8:58 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Legend, posted 08-13-2009 9:23 AM Huntard has not replied

  
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