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Author Topic:   Another "New" View of Creation
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 5 of 64 (515275)
07-16-2009 10:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Will Seamus Ennis
07-16-2009 2:16 PM


Re: re-done, let me know what you think.
As a center of some intelligence in the Universe that itself is Intelligent, what am I creating?
Sorry to have to tell you this, but I think you are creating gibberish.
Your post seems to have no necessary relation to the real world. It seems to be a mix of metaphysical mumbo-jumbo and thinly veiled religious belief masquerading as junk science, as it certainly doesn't seem to be able to reach any level.
Perhaps if you rephrased some of your concepts with reference to empirical evidence rather than metaphysical imaginings it would mean more (to me, at least).
(I don't mean to rain on your parade, but I have a low tolerance for the metaphysical, philosophy and other squishy subjects.)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Will Seamus Ennis, posted 07-16-2009 2:16 PM Will Seamus Ennis has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by themasterdebator, posted 07-17-2009 1:41 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 8 by Will Seamus Ennis, posted 07-19-2009 10:01 AM Coyote has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 11 of 64 (515584)
07-19-2009 1:28 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Will Seamus Ennis
07-19-2009 10:01 AM


No intelligence required
Hence my statement that there is observable intelligence even in the smallest particles.
And expression of intelligence is the Creative Process. This is happening now, as new stars form, as the pressure and heat and radiation create new chemical bonds. New expressions of life are happening as species evolve.
The point in this is that the whole Universe is responding, now in this moment, based on inner repeatable patterns and the conditions it finds. This is intelligence.
This has been known for centuries as "following the natural laws."
To call this "intelligence" is a very poor choice of terms, particularly with creationists using the same term in a duplicitous manner to try to "wedge" their version of religion back into the schools in the guise of science.
But if you want to go on from here, please define "intelligence" in a manner that shows how it differs from "natural laws."

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by Will Seamus Ennis, posted 07-19-2009 10:01 AM Will Seamus Ennis has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 07-19-2009 1:44 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2136 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 43 of 64 (516194)
07-24-2009 12:05 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by crawler30
07-23-2009 11:11 PM


Re: Consciousness?
Welcome to the fray!
Yet, society believes we are the most intelligent beings in the universe.
Sorry, that's nonsense. Certainly scientists don't hold such a belief. What the less well-educated believe is of little importance. Any proposition, no matter how silly, will find a significance percentage of adherents. It means nothing.
Whatever the case one wants to believe, this is for me, a huge point for I.D. Because of the fact that it seems to be alot more complicated than evolution can explain, it leads me to believe that it was designed.
Actually, evolution can explain a lot more than creationists are willing to accept. 1) Creationists almost always have a worldview centered around a creator. 2) There is no empirical evidence for any supernatural entities. 3) ID and design are based on a religious worldview, not on scientific data. 4) There are some 4,300 world religions with tens of thousands of different sects or subdivisions; their beliefs are often mutually-exclusive and internally-inconsistent, and are always based on something other than empirical evidence (otherwise there would be but one religion).
I say it was God, although this may upset some of the posters who have replied here, I would gladly hear of another theory if it can even come close to explaining such a design.
So far the ID proponents have proposed nothing that has withstood the test of "design." Design itself, as they describe it, is entirely subjective, with no clearly defined criteria. This is certainly not science. This is religious dogma seeking to take on the trappings of science without adhering to the scientific method or providing any empirical evidence. (And ID was "designed" after the Edwards v. Aguillard decision of the U.S. Supreme Court which banned creation "science" from the schools--an inauspicious beginning which has not really fooled anyone.)
But keep in mind that evolution would have to add or take away attributes slowly over time, which this structure would fail to propel the organism unless it has all of its pieces. The closest structure to this has five less pieces, and it is an injection pump to inject poison into the cells of its host.
to see the image, goggle image search flagellar motor.
But this gradual addition or subtraction is just what the theory of evolution proposes! The creationist's canard of a lizard giving birth to a bird is nonsense--change actually occurs in tiny increments. This is what creationists have termed micro-evolution. But creationists deny that such change can just keep on going, in response to changing environmental conditions, to add up to macro-evolution. Unfortunately, creationists have yet to provide a mechanism to show how and why that micro-evolution must stop at some point lest it become macro-evolution. The reason seems to be they base their belief on the biblical concept of "kinds," which cannot change, rather than on empirical evidence which clearly shows such change actually occurs.
Behe's concept of irreducible complexity has not withstood the test of scientific evidence. His major examples have all been refuted. That's not a very good start for ID, now, is it?
Now you'll probably disagree with my post. Fine. Provide evidence to show that my points are inaccurate and your's are accurate.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by crawler30, posted 07-23-2009 11:11 PM crawler30 has not replied

  
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