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Author Topic:   We're Really Chimps???
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 12 of 92 (177455)
01-16-2005 1:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheLiteralist
01-15-2005 11:38 PM


TheLiteralist writes of a comment he heard in a chat room:
quote:
We are really just chimps whose proteins fold differently for some reason.
That isn't quite what I had heard. Instead, what I had heard is that while the chimp and human DNA are amazingly similar, there appears to be a difference in how it is expressed.
For example, one thing that we have learned from the Human Genome Project is that there is much more to proteins than just the number of genes. That is, our original estimates of the number of genes were around 100,000 due to the number of proteins that seem to be part of the body. That was primarily based upon a one gene/one protein concept. But it seems we have much fewer genes than that...about 30,000 if I recall the numbers correctly.
More research showed that it seems proteins are often the result of combinations of genes working together. Genes A, B, and C create proteins X, Y, and Z individually, but then they also create proteins XY, XZ, and YZ and well as XYX and ZZY and other various combinations. Thus, a single gene may be involved in multiple proteins.
Part of the difference between human and chimpanzee biology, it seems, is that humans have much more expression of certain proteins than others. With regard to the brain, humans express some proteins much more than chimpanzees. It isn't just the genes. It's also the gene regulation and expression.
The scenario is much more complicated than simple "folding of proteins," though I'm sure that is part of it.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-15-2005 11:38 PM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 16 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-16-2005 2:55 AM Rrhain has replied
 Message 23 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-16-2005 1:11 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 20 of 92 (177475)
01-16-2005 5:24 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by TheLiteralist
01-16-2005 2:55 AM


Re: Misunderstandings
TheLiteralist writes:
quote:
i.e., God designed the human structure first and based most other life forms
Then why do humans have such crap structures compared to the other animals? Cephalopoid eyes are better than human eyes. The human retina is inside out with the nerves on the outside and the photosensitive pigments on the inside. Thus, a photon needs to traverse the network of nerves in order to reach the pigments which would then trigger the nerves. Thus, we lose photons in the process.
And on top of that, it requires that the nerve tissue must then pierce the pigment network and creates a blind spot.
Cephalopoid eyes, however, are right side out. The pigments are on the outside and the nerves are on the inside. Thus, the photons don't have to pass through the nerve tissue in order to reach the receptors. And because the nerves are behind the pigment network, the nerves don't need to pierce the pigment network in order to reach the optic nerve and go to the brain.
So if humans were made first, why did we get inside out eyes? We have such horrendous other engineering mistakes such as the way our spines and pelvises are poorly connected, leading to back problems. And the appendix. Why do we still have it? It can't get any smaller, though, because the way the blood vessels enter into it, making it any smaller tends to lead to strangulation of the organ and necrosis.
I'm not saying that humans need to be the fastest or the strongest. I'm simply saying that why do we have such obvious mistakes that nobody would ever make?
Why do we have a broken GLO gene? If humans aren't supposed to be able to synthesize vitamin C, why do we have any of the genetic components involved in the synthesis cycle? And why is gene 4 of 5 broken? Most of the other mammals have functional GLO genes, so why did we get the short end of the stick?
quote:
God altered the code just a bit.
But why did we get broken code? Why not simply remove the structure in toto?
quote:
first one is that humans may not be as wonderful as they sometimes think themselves to be.
I think you need to extend that. Because humans aren't as wonderful as they could be, it means that god isn't nearly as competent as he is made out to be.
From whence came this assumption that the designer was intelligent? If life as we observe it was designed, it is clear that the designer didn't really know what he was doing.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-16-2005 2:55 AM TheLiteralist has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-16-2005 2:34 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 35 of 92 (177668)
01-16-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by TheLiteralist
01-16-2005 2:34 PM


Re: Can we assume the Creator's motives in design?
TheLiteralist responds to me:
quote:
Hmmm...the photon loss, for me, has caused relatively few problems.
And how would you know? You are physically incapable of telling the difference.
quote:
And, if cephalopoids are octopi and such, then there is at least a slight difference in environmental variables that needs to be considered.
No, they don't. We build cameras that don't have this problem and they don't go nuts when taking pictures. You act as if the inside-out retina is somehow "protecting" the photopigment network. But why would it need protecting? There is no indication that it does.
quote:
Could it be that in the air, it is best to lose photons so as not to overload the vision system with light energy.
No.
Again, we build cameras that don't have this problem. Why would the eye be any different?
quote:
Could be any number of reasons why a designer might do something like that.
No, only two, really:
Stupid designer.
Cruel designer.
quote:
Something else to consider is that, if the Bible is true, then we are no longer living in the original, optimal edenic environment...the Flood, which I'm not assuming you believe, destroyed that.
The Flood is a physical impossibility. Besides, if we believe what you are saying about the Flood, there was more water in the air than there is now. If we're going along with your claim that the cephalopoid eye is right side out because the environmental conditions allow for filtering, then humans should have also received a right side out retina due to the amazingly water-laden air they were living in (and, of course, gills to breathe it since there would be more water than any other gas.)
So by your logic, the designer should have given us right side out retinas. Why don't we have them?
Stupid designer.
Cruel designer.
quote:
You seem to be assuming He wouldn't want us to be needy.
Since other organisms in the same environment don't have the same structural flaws, one wonders why we, his most beloved and closest creation, got stuck with them.
As I directly said, we don't need to be the strongest or the fastest. I'm just wondering why there is so much stupid engineering of the morphology. We don't need to have the most densely packed retina that would be capable of letting us see vastly more detail. We don't need to have lenses that never harden and cloud over time leading to presbyopia and cataracts.
But why on earth is our retina inside out when there is no reason for it to be that way?
quote:
Now, I am not using these verses to convince you to believe in the God of the Bible as I do, I am only pointing out that the God of the Bible seems very aware of the imperfections and troubles in humanity.
So god is an evil, cruel bastard.
If that's the kind of deity you wish to worship, you go right ahead.
quote:
So, right after creation we lived in the optimal environment.
Which, by your logic, would have necessitated right side out retinas and gills, neither of which we have.
Stupid designer.
Cruel designer.
quote:
You seem to be assuming He would want it to be perfect for us right now.
Incorrect. I directly said the opposite. We don't have to be the strongest or the fastest. But a designer that does stupid things is, well, stupid.
Why do we have a BROKEN GLO gene? If god meant for humans to be unable to synthesize their own vitamin C the way pretty much every other mammal can, why did he put a BROKEN genetic sequence in our DNA? Why not just leave it out altogether?
There are literally hundreds of these pseudogenes in our DNA. Stretches of code that are broken in us but functional in other species and completely absent in others. So why on earth do we have them? It isn't like the chromosome needs to have them in there. So if we weren't supposed to be able to synthesize vitamin C, why do we have all the structures to do it with a single part broken so that it doesn't work?
Do you remember the Intel 486 and 386 processors? They came out in two different versions: DX and SX. The difference between the two was whether or not it had a math co-processor. The DX had it and was more expensive while the SX didn't and was less expensive.
But here's the thing: The SX actually had the math co-processor. It was just non-functional. They disabled it. As a result, it consumed less power, but why on earth would Intel create such a beast and then sell it for less? After all, the process of making an SX chip is to first create a DX chip and then disable the co-processor. It actually takes more labor to create the SX chip, and yet it costs less.
Note, Intel did not advertise this fact to the consumer. Instead, they simply told people that it didn't have a math co-processor (which, in some sense, is true.)
The 486SX system was designed to be upgradable, though. You could buy a 487SX chip to insert into the motherboard that would, as far as the consumer was concerned, give the 486 a math co-processor and the two chips together would be functionally equivalent to a 486DX.
But here's the thing: The 487SX was actually a fully functional 486DX chip. It turned off the 486SX and did all of the integer and floating point calculations itself. However, you could not run the 487 on its own. You had to have the 486 in the system.
Again, Intel did not advertise this fact to the consumer.
It is widely considered that Intel was nuts to do this. But when you have a defacto monopoly, you can do pretty much whatever you want. But don't you think if the consumer knew about this, they would have called Intel on its greed?
Do you not agree that it is stupid engineering to create a chip and then hit it with a hammer? Do you not agree that it is stupid engineering to then take this broken chip and add the full chip alongside it which cannot run unless it turns off the broken chip?
This is what we see inside the human genome. If it's stupid when we do it, why isn't it stupid when god does it?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by TheLiteralist, posted 01-16-2005 2:34 PM TheLiteralist has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-16-2005 11:04 PM Rrhain has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 66 of 92 (179553)
01-22-2005 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by Juhrahnimo
01-16-2005 11:04 PM


Re: No, you can't...
Juhrahnimo responds to me:
quote:
No, you can't assume the Creator's motives.
I most certainly can. What's the point of having a brain if I'm not allowed to use it? Humans are creators, too. And we're very good at it. We can recognize crap design when we see it.
If it's stupid when we do it, why isn't it stupid when god does it?
By your logic, we can't say to god, "But two and two does not equal five," because, after all, we cannot "assume the creator's motives." Never mind that it's wrong and you can prove it.
quote:
First, Eve was made to be perfect. But after she sinned, God CHANGED SOMETHING that caused her body to go through extreme pain when giving birth (pain didn't exist before the fall).
What does this have to do with the retina? You don't give birth through your eyes. And there is a huge mix of other animals that have right side out and inside out retinas. What did the ones who have inside out retinas do to incur god's wrath? If god was cursing the animals, too, how did some of them manage to get away?
Of course, Eve didn't sin. She couldn't. Sin requires knowledge of good and evil and she didn't have that at the time that she ate from the tree. When you have a precious Mhing vase that you don't want broken, you don't leave it on a wobbly pedestal in a room with a toddler. No matter how much you say, "Don't touch," the kid doesn't know any better. When you hear the crash, you don't blame the child. You blame yourself. You knew what was going to happen so you have nobody to blame but yourself.
It isn't that Eve was stupid. It was that she was innocent.
And that doesn't even begin to get into the fact that god LIED about the tree. How does one sin against someone who is lying right to your face? False premises lead to any conclusion you desire.
quote:
Mankind heaped sin upon sin on himself, so how do we know God didn't continue making changes as time went on?
Because the Bible doesn't say he did. You are assuming that when god said, "I will greatly increase the pains of your childbirth," that he somehow wasn't talking about just greatly increasing the pains of childbirth.
Besides, you just changed your argument. Your original argument was that humans have inside out retinas because god so loved us that he gave us "protective" retinas. Now you're saying that we have inside out retinas because god so hated us that he painfully changed the morphology of humans.
Which is it? You can't have it both ways.
quote:
God continued to make changes every so often, and includes the animal kingdom (over which we were given dominion). God includes ALL of creation when he deals with us;
So why don't we all have right side out retinas? The cephalopoids do. What got them on god's good side that they got the good eyes back while we're still stuck with the crap design?
You've changed your argument again.
quote:
Obviously, God made a CHANGE.
Incorrect. There is nothing in Gen 9 that indicates god changed a single piece of morphology. Fear does not reside in an organism's retinas.
And why did this result in cephalopods getting right side out retinas again while chimpanzees got stuck with the crap design?
You've changed your argument again.
quote:
As for your 486SX analogy, you might want to check your history a little better rather than reading too-young-to-remember-college-kid essays reporing on what they got out an encyclopedia or cliff notes.
(*chuckle*)
Just how old do you think I am?
quote:
The first 486SX chip was the result of someone at INTEL (who was most certainly smarter than either one of us) who realized that they didn't really need the math co-processor so why throw it in the garbage???
Not quite. The first 486SX chip was the result of someone at Intel who realized that they could sell more computers if they came out with a cheaper model. And by creating a "new" chip that didn't require any real change in the assembly line, they could get both ends of the market: Those who could afford the DX line and those who didn't have enough money to go quite that far.
And the first 486SX couldn't be expanded. It took the second generation to get the 487s. And that, too, was nothing more than a marketing ploy. Sell two chips for the functionality of one. More money for Intel.
quote:
The SX chip wasn't DESIGNED out of stupidity
Of course not. It was designed out of greed. Anybody who heard what was really going on never bought an SX again. It's stupid designed foisted upon an unsuspecting public for no other reason than to fill the coffers of a technological conglomerate with a monopoly on the desktop.
When you look at the design, it's stupid. You take a perfectly good chip and DISABLE PART OF IT. What the hell is the point of doing that? You're god. You can do anything. Why on earth would you ever create something that had extraneous parts that don't work?
If it's stupid when we do it, why isn't it stupid when god does it?
quote:
it was a SALVAGED DX chip that couldn't pass inspection!!!!
Then what the hell was the point of the 487? Why design a motherboard with a second socket that takes a chip that is a DX without actually having the DX label on it? That requires the SX chip to be in the first socket in order to function? Why not just create a motherboard that has an SX socket and a DX socket and you put whichever chip you happen to have in the right socket and leave the other one empty?
If it is stupid when we do it, why isn't it stupid when god does it?
quote:
The creation was made to be PERFECT.
So why isn't it? Why are there extraneous parts that don't work? Why is the design so piss poor? If we were perfect then we wouldn't have had any vitamin C pathway at all. Why did a broken pathway get added to the system?
quote:
You're trying to pick on God for what YOU THINK is poor design
Of course. If it's stupid when we do it, why isn't it stupid when god does it?
Why are you getting so upset for using the brains god gave me?
quote:
Like examining a freshly totaled Mercedes, then blaming Mercedes for making a lousy car that won't run.
Incorrect. It's like examining a freshly totalled Mercedes and blaming Mercedes for making a lousy car whose brakes don't work and has an amazing tendency to have the steering wheel lock up when you hit 65 mph. Of course, it's going to crash.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-16-2005 11:04 PM Juhrahnimo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-22-2005 2:18 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 67 of 92 (179554)
01-22-2005 4:00 AM
Reply to: Message 48 by Juhrahnimo
01-17-2005 9:43 AM


Re: Punishment
Juhrahnimo responds to NosyNed:
quote:
The vitamin C thing was just PURE, ABSOLUTE thinking out loud
But I was the one who brought it up and I was most definitely not "thinking out loud." You need to respond to the point:
Why would god choose to break the vitamin C pathways of certain animals and do it exactly the same way in humans and other apes but do it completely differently in hamsters and certain types of fish?
Suppose you were trying to disable a key so that it wouldn't work in a specific lock. You could file down the ridges on the key, thus preventing the tumblers from lining up correctly. Or, you could bend or break off the tongue of the key, thus preventing it from even entering the lock.
So why would you do the first to one set of keys (filing them all down in exactly the same way) and the other to a different set?
Why is it humans and other apes have the exact same mistake while other animals have a completely different mistake?
Shouldn't we all have the same mistake?
And if the designer were truly intelligent, shouldn't we have an absent gene rather than a broken gene?

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-17-2005 9:43 AM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 68 of 92 (179556)
01-22-2005 4:12 AM
Reply to: Message 57 by Juhrahnimo
01-17-2005 12:50 PM


Re: Punishment is a good word for it
Juhrahnimo writes:
quote:
But for certain, God didn't make thorns and thistles as part of the creation either, but they showed up later for the reason mentioned.
That's not what the Bible says. Thistles and thorns are herbs bearing seed, after all, and god creates them before the fall. Some of them are really good to eat. Prickly pear is wonderful. The artichoke is a thistle.

Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Juhrahnimo, posted 01-17-2005 12:50 PM Juhrahnimo has not replied

  
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