Difference between religion and science fora

Facts are not held tentatively.Facts are facts; data.What is held tentatively are the frameworks that scientists contruct in order to organize the facts and explain why they appear as they do.AKA "Scientific Theories".Theories are the explanations of the facts.So, it is a FACT that alelle frequencies in populations change over time.The THEORY of Evolution is the explanitory framework which explains how this happens.

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It is possible that evolution did not happen.

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It is also possuble that God poofed everything into existence last Thursday.However, both propositions have very low probabilities. ...and that's what science deals in.Probabilities, not certainties.

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I see, and if I want to challenge that scheme of things, to say that evolution is the MOST tentative rather than the closest to being actually proven, this is simply not allowed?

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No, no, please do challenge Evolution as much as you like.But you must do so with the evidence, not with your own opinion.

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Which is what I thought. This isn't about terminology, it's about the very claims that are being challenged.

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Challenge away, but do so using evidence.I will add that it would be very useful for you to do some asking of questions about the scientific method and what current Evolutionarytheory actually claims before you go off half cocked, ignorant of what it is you claim is incorrect.At least attempt to understand what science is, and what the ToE claims, and some of the evidence supporting it before you try to critique it.

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But thanks for allowing me the term "proof" in at least some cases. Schrafinator denied me the right to use it EVER EVER EVER EVER. And apparently so does C Knight.

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Are you really telling me that you were using "proof" to mean "tentatively held based upon our current understanding"?Truthfully, were you?

Well, fair enough, but then you went on to list several things that you said were "proved" in science, one of which actually wasn't correct.Can you understand where the confusion lies when you do something like this?We know you reject Evolution, Faith, which is why, when you use the word "proof" in the way you have been, it tends to lead us to thinking that you misunderstand the meaning WRT science just like most other creationists misunderstand (and misuse) the meaning.The truth is, you do make many errors when you discuss the science. When others, even professional scientists, attempt to correct those errors, you often resist or retreat. Can you really blame us for not assuming you understand the tentative way scientists use the word "proof"?What is so repugnant about using the standardized vocabulary? Isn't your goal in your writing to communicate your meaning as clearly as possible? I know it is with me, and it seems to be so with you as well. By refusing to use the standard terms, it is as though you are expecting Russian speakers to figure out what you mean when you occasionally slip in some Portugese words every now and then in conversation, and then blaming the Russian speakers for not figuring out what you mean.If you use the standard terminology, there will be no question of what you mean, and we can move forward.You need to speak in our language if you want us to understand.This message has been edited by schrafinator, 08-02-2005 08:46 AM

The "scale of tentativity" you are asking for is the evidence, Faith.There is greater or lesser support for all scientific theories, so they are held and accepted by scientists with greater or lesser levels of tentativity.That's why, if you want to discuss specific scientific claims, you need to do your homework and make the effort to educate yourself on what is known and not known.Science, as I have said, deals in probabilities, not certainties. So, there is a sliding scale of tentativity, with things like common descent, the Earth orbiting the sun, and that matter is made of atoms being of very high probability and of low tentativity.In addition, like I have said, it seems clear to me that you would benefit from aquainting yourself with the tenets of science.Here are some good places to start. And please don't just reject them out of hand. Even if you do not accept the conclusions of science, at least make an effort to understand the scientific process. short explanation of what science is